GamePress

Legendary matchups for Groudon

This question is inspired by my "brag thread" and others asking about Dialga counters.

Of course, Groudon will remain the supreme counter to Raikou and Heatran when they return.

Pokebattler ranks Groudon first overall against Dialga, contrary to consensus here that Machamp is the better counter.

How about Gen V legendaries, such as Zekrom and Reshiram? Other dragons will be equally weak to their moves.

(I am not familiar with Gen V, just relying on Bulbapedia. Regirock and Registeel are less likely to return.)

Asked by hkn6 years 2 months ago
Report

Answers

by Raven8 6 years 2 months ago

The issue with Dialga is DPS vs TDO. Groudon has the best TDO no doubt, but Machamp has much higher DPS, to the point where a good Groudon only competes with Machamp in sunny weather. Add that to the fact that DPS is generally the top metric for raids, and there ya go.

Short of a change in moveset, Groudon will likely remain the TDO go-to for most raids with a ground weakness, though it will probably never be the DPS king short of a double weakness to exploit.

In the future, it will reign supreme with Nihilego as well, assuming it's a raid boss.

Up
0
Down

There's at least one exception for Groudon being top TDO, which is electric moves Zekrom. Garchomp will far outclass Groudon in both metrics. Funnily enough, even Flygon will out-TDO Groudon due to the additional layer of resistance, but its DPS isn't great.

Up
+4
Down

Groudon will win the TDO race considerably due to 4X resist thunder and higher natural bulk.

If you argued it’s the best overall counter you wouldn’t be wrong, but I figured most will go in with 6 Machamp (or 5+1 groudon) which is not wrong either.

Up
0
Down

Mind telling me what data you're inputting for Pokebattler? According to my screen, the best counters at level 40 with best friends and extreme weather still rank Machamp as #1 in both TTW and estimator. Whereas Groudon is ranked at #6 and #5 respectively.

Against future Gen 5 legendaries Groudon will deal super effective damage to Reshiram, Zekrom, Cobalion, and Terrakion. Other dragons will be faster against the two dragons, fire and fighting types will be faster against Cobalion, and a variety of psychic, steel, water, and grass types will be faster against Terrakion.

Up
0
Down

Pokebattler sorting Dialga counters by Overall, By Level (35), No Dodging, with Extreme Weather and Not Friends.

Up
0
Down

I don't know how they define "overall" but I'm guessing Groudon's massive TDO is what's tipping the scale to #1. Either way I'm still of the camp of rather having more Machamp than Groudon with me in a fight against Dialga.

Up
+1
Down

Agaisnt dialga, from what i've seen, aside form looking at TDO, groudon's never number one, as its TTW is so far behind machamp, the supreme and thus baseline counter.

Against Zekrom and reshiram, I'd go with dragons first, even if they have dragon moves, other dragons will still be faster and we will have dialga by then, against electric moves on zekrom there's Garchomp 6x resistance to electric with the double dragon DPS and the resistance to fire on reshiram

Terrakion, metagross handles It supremely unless it's given ground moves, in which case we have mewtwo Kyogre, machamp, PF venusaur, beloom and too many pokemon to name

Cobalion's weaknesses are identical to registeel's, (fighting adds no weakness to cobalion, only more neutral damaging types) and fire was supreme in all weather compared to ground

Groudon will need precipice blades to stand out in these match ups or it will just be a tank counter

If and when raikou and Heatran return, it will be supreme, but only those legendary match ups for now

Up
0
Down

by zap 6 years 2 months ago

Honestly, I don't see why anyone cares about having the pinnacle of the penultimate team for raids. You're gonna beat the stupid thing so stop worrying about that extra point of damage for each pokemon. Such a waste of resources.
It's the PVP arena where each individual pokemon is going to matter.

Up
-5
Down

For most, at least in my area, it seems it comes down to wanting to be able to do raids with as few as possible, we prefer doing duo's/trios reliably, and I think that goes for most in general. Being able to have the best counter for raids means you dont need to worry about not having enough people to beat it, or if they have good counters when you are with a group you know between you has them.

Might not be the case for everyone, but its what ive seen. Some prefer raiding in groups of 20 just to kill the thing, others like the shortmans, which need the best options.

Up
+1
Down

It makes the difference between being able to reliably shortman a legendary and being hesitant with a lobby of 6 people. From personal experience, my team was the deciding factor on defeating a Heatran with a lobby of 4 people - legitimately, I was the one Mystic and managed to nearly outdamage the other three Valor trainers combined according to the team contribution bars being almost identical.

If you're somewhere that always has lobbies of 12+ people then by all means continue beating away with your Aggron army. If you have to square up against a Heatran with only two people or a Kyogre/Groudon with 3 or 4 then those extra points of damage can make the difference between wasting a raid pass and potentially encountering a shiny.

Up
+3
Down

That second one is exactly what happened to me during t6 mewtwo month. 7 of us there, and 2 of them jumped in without telling us, we had about 20 seconds to make out teams (thats when we jumped in because they yelled over to us they were in) and we failed with a sliver of HP left because we were using more or less aggron, umbreon and rock tyranitar because the auto select raid timer expired and we only got the one shot, nothing hurts like loosing a legendary

More damage also means more bundles, and throws, so youre more likely to catch it if it isnt a shiny.

Up
0
Down

Been there. 7 or 8 people against a Lugia during it's first reintroduction/initial shiny debut, failed with a sliver of health due to other players using less than optimal Pokemon from autoselect; Pokemon of note I observed were Skarmory and what was revealed as "double leaf" Shiftry. It didn't help that this was during the revive drought so repeated attempts involved worse and worse Pokemon being used. All in all I was not happy.

Up
0
Down

Ouch....Ouch....Reasons like this are why i go with a group that knows what its doing.

My instinct friends back home, because we are such a small team, actually came to me to teach them how to raid with proper counters because they were struggling with things likr that.

Up
0
Down

I don't use Aggron in raids. I use the best Pokemon that I have.
I typically only power up one of each Pokemon, this I have a variety to use. I never think to myself "I need to power up 4 more Groudons because it may be the difference between winning or doing the raid again some day". I just think that's a waste of resources honestly.

To me, even if you don't manage to have enough people once in a while, it's not worth it to me to didn't 100,000 first and Candy to maybe be the difference.

Up
0
Down

Its all a difference in perspective, some like the ability to always know you will win this raid with you and two buddies, in some cases that means maxed out legendaries. Others like to just go in with a group of any size and just beat the raid with a variety of pokemon, its all a playstyle and end goal thing, so long as the raid's beaten, i see no one side as more right than the other

Up
0
Down

I dont care about PVP- for me there is wasting dust or candy to powerup things like Giratina or Cresselia with no reward.

And better to be able 3-4 man any raid than waiting for others...

Up
0
Down

Overall ranking isn't the best indicator of ability to shortman a raid or ability to get maximum damage balls, so really I don't see why you'd ever look at it. TTW and estimator are the most relevant metrics on pokebattler.

Up
0
Down