We all know and love/hate giratina in ultra, but does mamoswine have a chance at being the pokemon to take it down? Or is avalanche not as good in PvP, or is giratina simply just that good it can overcome mamoswine?
I know steelix is as well, and theres a few other counters to giratina, but most all of them are meant to out tank it, and some even fail agaisnt some sets or shield disadvantages, would mamoswine have the damage output to know a giratina out faster? And if it gets ancient power, that could be useful for shieldbreaking
It's got the moves to completely slay it. Powder Snow has higher EPT than the other ice type fast moves and Avalanche only requires 45 energy to be used. Not as spammy as the DB/DC combo but plenty strong.
My concern is how its bulk scales at the 2500cp cap. Its max CP is close to Giratina so its level would only go so far as the mid 20's, maybe mid-upper if its IVs are trash.
Wrong, for a couple of reasons. Piloswine maxes out at CP 2345, and that is for a perfect level 40 15/15/15 specimen. A 3/15/15 Mamoswine at level 27.5 (CP 2495) has similar bulk to the Piloswine, with considerably better attacking power. And who is seriously going to max out a Piloswine for use in the Ultra League, when they could evolve a Mamoswine for little or no stardust cost that will be superior?
As BiggestLeaf replied, Mamoswine has the best ice-type moveset for PVP, has a great stat distribution and doesn't suffer super effective damage from any of its moves, so he is a very effective counter for Giratina. I based on the information I found on Gamepress:
-> In PVP, where EPT is highly appreciated, Powder Snow is amongst the very best fast move in energy gain and is the very best for hurting Giratina effectively.
-> Avalanche is one of the two best DPE move that hurts Giratina. The other one is Draco Meteor and unfortunatelly has just one energy bar.
In other words, Mamoswine can charge and recharge fast his moves and force the oponent to waste his shields (though Giratina can charge near as fast and has access to 3-bar moves), can tank some of his attacks and also packs a punch.
He might not be able to kill Giratina thanks to how bulky and fast his skills are, but you can rest assured he will leave grievous wounds on any Giratina.
There is also the Swinub Community Day in the horizon, who knows what will come? Maybe an access to a 3-bar charge move that could not be good in PVE, but could destroy giratina's shield as fast as he can and gain the upper hand, being the real counter for him. So let's lay down and wait for some news :D
So at best, its a giratina killer, and at worst, its going to give giratina a bad day. That's fantastic, even a 'worst case senario' (the kind I prefer looking at, as if soemthign does well in the worst case, its going to be a god in the best case) its going to severely damage giratina.
DC only is 10 more energy than avalanche, so It will be close for who gets moves faster, as PS has high EPT and DB's less energy but on a lower cost move.
Avalanche is 45 energy
EPT from PS is 4, so it takes 12 turns or 6 seconds to charge it up the first time. However the second time charging up you do this in 11 turns or 5,5 seconds due to leftover energy.
Dragon Claw is 35 energy
EPT from DB is 3, so it takes 12 turns the first time to charge it up. The second time however this does not change because the leftover energy is not sufficient to make this 11 turns.
First time: 35/3=12 turns with 1 leftover energy.
Because 1 leftover energy is still in de energy pool the second time it is 34/3. This is still 12 with this time 2 left over energy.
In short, in theory the second time the Avalanche user gets its charge move off 0,5 or 1 turn faster.
All you guys said right things, no one is wrong in my point of view. Mamoswine has everything that other viable counters have and also don't have to go toe-on-toe with Giratina confortably even with shield.
But even with those upsides and downsides, there is also the connection factor, so a bit of luck will help both Mamoswine and Giratina.
Either way, though we can't negate the fact that Mamoswine is going to be a nightmare for Giratina and many others dragons or ground types, being weak to other common pokémons will also bring some balance after bringing Mamoswine to the PVP :D
For the record, EPT is not the end all be all in PvP that everyone makes it out to be.
I have gone on record many times saying how good Bite Ttar is even with terrible energy gain.
Oh and wouldn't you know when the meta rankings came out who was on top? Ttar.
Mamoswine does threaten to really shake things up though potentially giving new life to Metagross and hurting TTar and legacy dragonite.
Its still a little iffy because of the relative weakness of Bulldoze and Powder Snow.
At the end of the day I feel like TTar with its access to Stone Edge gets the job done. And Bite is essentially SE against Mamoswine due to the 251/146 Atk/Def calculation (1.72) compared to 247/207 (1.19). Bite in general is twice as strong as Powder Snow. In this matchup is works out to be 3 times stronger as each PS hits for 4 and each Bite hits for 6 and twice as often. Bulldoze does hurt, though I think a Ttar can tank 1 and still come out the victor (barely like 1 hp) instead of using a second shield if you really wanted to.
Honestly with Melmetal being the third highest ranked mon, I think all Mamoswine does is further cement the top 3 pushing them all higher and lowering groudon, potentially removing Dragonite and maybe even raising swampert higher.
Neither EPT nor DPT is the end all be all in PvP. What really matters is cycle damage per turn (and when you get the attack off, beating the foe's attack can be very important).
One can get good cycle damage from a powerful, low energy move like Bite, or a weaker, high energy move like Powder Snow or Mud Shot or Psycho Cut. Flygon and Mewtwo do just fine with their 'weak' fast attacks, and Ttar does just fine with its slower, more powerful fast attack.
My concern with Mamoswine is that it's a one trick pony (as of now), even for PvP. Best Ice, beats dragons that aren't Dialga, shreds the flying dragons, but has way more weaknesses then resistances, and doesn't excel anywhere else. I think the odds are near 100% that your foe will have at least one of Fight, Fire, Grass, Steel, or Water, all types that Mamoswine is weak to, while they are less than that (but perhaps still high) that your foe will have a dragon. So that's the rub. Guess right with it and you're in good shape. Guess wrong and you can get the short end of it regularly.
(Of course, Earthquake could change this, or another good earth move. We'll see next month what we get.)
Just like you said. If the cycle damage is high, it won't matter much what moves were used, be it better on energy gain or Damage output.
Also as well, Mamoswine might not be that great as a generalist like rayquaza, mewtwo or metagross, but can be extraordinary as a specialist on the ice-type frontier. I even noted on a previous commentary that bringing him to the PVP arena may give more balance to the current meta. Also is a matter of odds, "who knows what pokemon might come next after I had beaten that one?" is a question that should be commom on PVP.
Finally the community day. He already is the new king of Ice-types, but who knows what move may come? maybe earth power? I wonder :D
TTar is the "meta analyzed" king of master. He is not the king of ultra by any means. In ultra league, his high attack means that at the cp cap of 2500, giratina can take him in a 1v1 if they both have full shields, just because of how powerful the DB/DC combination is considering it is neutral against TTar and that DC can be spammed far more than any charge move TTar has. This gives Giratina a higher cycle DPS against TTar relative to his bulk than TTar has against giratina relative to Tina's bulk.
Piloswine (who will have a better stat spread and similar move pool to mamoswine at the CP cap of 2500) can get off Avalanche slightly faster than Giratina can get off DC, giving Piloswine a superior cycle DPS against Tina than Tina has against Piloswine.
All this to say that, at least for ULTRA league, Piloswine IS the superior counter to Tina. This does take some of the hype out of mamoswine coming out, as Piloswine is just better for Ultra, but in master, Mamoswine will still be superior to TTar for slaying Tina as PS's EPT allows Avalanche to generate more Cycle dps than TTar with Bite/anything.
You pitted TTar up against Mamoswine for master's. You're missing something. Yes, bite still hits for more damage than PS. But PS is SE and charges avalanche far faster than bite charges anything, which means that even with 2 shields, TTar can't bite Mamoswine to death fast enough to come out ahead. With no shields, ttar just loses to the massive DPS advantage that avalanche gives Mamoswine over TTar.
Not saying TTar isn't good mind you. He's inarguably a Master League super star thanks to his effectiveness profile and the raw power that Bite gives him. He definitely is the superior Tina counter in Master, mostly because of the wide range of other mons that he's effective against.
BUT, Ultra is not Masters, and TTar suffers from inferior fast move quality to many other Ultra league options, Piloswine among them. In masters, TTar's crazy stat line combined with Bite's raw power makes him a force. But there's a reason that Water Gun is considered a better fast move than Bite for PvP. Energy matters, move quality matters, and TTar lacks in the move department.
You've said most of what I wanted to say him. Indeed Tyranitar is the super star of Master League. He can put a dent up nearly everyone that goes there.
Indeed when it is Tyranittar vs. Mamoswine on master league our tyrant has the uper hand on power and can make use of it to win, but it can go both ways, it dependes on more factors aside moves and power, there is some luck as well.
But as you said, the question was specific about only one thing, and that is what I would like to answer him directly.
Hi, there! Well, most of the other guys had put out some topics that I myself wanted to reply you, but I am doing anyway:
-> I did mention that EPT was highly apreciated, indeed, but I do not record on saying that it was what mattered the most on PVP. Otherwise, our dear tyrant pokemon (He is one of my 3 favorite pokemon before that phone game) wouldn't be the super star on master league that I already knew about it. There are more factors like the move damage and the mons raw power;
->Second, the question was highly specific. He wanted to know whether Mamoswine is a counter to Giratina or not, which it indeed is and a very powerful one. On previous responses with the guy that asked, we did talk more about Ultra Leagues, but in case of Master leagues, Mamoswine could top Giratina there as well;
-> Third, just as Tyranitar is a broad specialist on Dark and Rock department, which stands out on the Master League, Mamoswine is a specialist on the Ice Kingdom. Both have strenghs and weaknesses, though our Tyrant have more weaknesses, he has stats to back him up on the hightest league, which our Mamoth lacks in good 500CP. But even though There is this difference, Mamoswine does have a decent bulk too and can charge his moves fast and his moves packs a more powerful punch than Chunch on Stone Edge on Avalanche. Might not be able to kill, but he surelly can make a great dent. We don't even know what move may come on Swinub day, what if it is earthquake (which is really good for PVP) and hurts way more than even stone edge? We can't say anything for sure...
-> Fourth, it DOES NOT cement anything. Instead, it just bring more balance and relevance for other and different mons to stand out and have chances on Master league, The only league were "the tyrant pokemon" stands out in PVP.
-> Even the BIG-3 that you spoke off have crippling weaknesses against some mons that might not stand out, but simply destroy those guys. Let's go with melmetal and put it against the new guy Mammoth: even if he has access to flash cannon, he can't really deal much damage without suffering a lot: fast eletric move that is double resisted doesn't help and is really rare for you to find a melmetal with a metal charged or 2 charged moves.
->Though I like Tyranitar and you used him as an example, which is good, you've mainly talked about Tyranitar. He indeed is powerful, is a star on the Master League because he does stands out against most of the common opponents, specially the most powerful ones in the game, found there and tops out many outcommers of lower leagues. He is a powerful counter to Giratina as well, I am well aware of all of this.
But aside being an especific question, it also involved lower leagues, were Tyranitar falls into obscurity.
-> Aside what you said in the first paragraph, which is a good point to state out, you only said about the Tyrant. If you like him more and feels he is good for your PVP games, that is good and I support you, but there are other options for everyone to use. The main idea of those topics are to teach and learn, and I believe MetagrossMaxis created this one to learn, but also teach other players.
No one would end up being naive to use mons with common strenghts or weaknesses in the same team. What if you lead a team with at least two of the Great 3 of the Master League and end up being faced with a Machamp and/or Kyogre? Just Machamp destroys both Melmetal and Tyranitar. I also noticed that you do support a lot Bite-Ty, and I like him as well, since He threatens some of the most powerful mons and neutrally damages others still with some power. But it is not just because of him that our tyrant is the king. What if you faced your Bite-Ty with another Tyranitar with Smack Down? dark resists dark and the raw power that tyranitar had advantage would be cut out to nearly the same damage of smack down and would have less energy gain. Even against meteor mash metagross you would have to watch your back.
I also support dark-set tyranitar and he himself in general a lot, but your commentary here was unfortunate, nearly preposterous. You started well, but ended coming up with something that is off the main topic and on most of your response I only saw you saying about Tyranitar, who aside raids and gym battles is ONLY GOOD in master leagues (where in my vision , at least most of the time, power means the most).
Lower leagues, many other mons can come out to play and is something more about strategy and luck, where unfortunatelly our tyrant does not do well.
I actually don't find Girantina that dominant. Things with good dragon ice, dark or psychic fast moves can whittle him down. I mean he is good, but my opponent having a giratina isn't the end of the match. Mamoswine sounds like it would fit in the having a good ice fast move bucket, but Alohan ninetails wrecks him pretty good, too
