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Would Heavy Slam as a second move be useful on Machamp?

I mean, you could just switch in a Metagross. And I'm also wondering, is it worth using a Charge TM to get it if I somehow get Close Combat?

Asked by DatLocalKarper6 years 4 months ago

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If you rather switch in Metagross, that is usually going to be the best bet if you find your Machamp suddenly up against something that heavily counters it.
Barring that though, Heavy Slam is actually a fantastic example of an extra move making a Pokemon far better as a generalist option. Against the 5 types that resist fighting, steel is not resisted or is super effective, so adding heavy slam can help fill in all of Machamps potential gaps.

On the TM issue, if you get Close Combat as a second move, you just have to weigh whether or not you want the stardust you spent to be wasted (since CC has nearly no use if you also have Dynamic Punch) or if you want to spend the extra TM.

Another consideration is what if Machamp is the last pokemon standing. Can't switch to anything then, and if you're up against a fairy or a ghost, Heavy Slam could be the difference between winning and losing.

However, the overriding concern is whether Machamp is the best pokemon for the job or not. Hariyama has the same moves, same typing, and a higher TDO.

For raids, it won't help at all. For gym attacking, it might be useful, as well as for gym defense. Weigh all the pros and cons, and make the best decision you can.

Counter is so absurdly broken that even when everything is going against you, you might still win

Beat my colleague's Extrasensory Ho-Oh with C/DP Hariyama

I think aeronaut63's answer is sound, if you can afford it, buy Heavy Slam for your best Hariyama (or Machamp), power him to about lvl30ish where he will be slightly less than 2500CP (in Hariyama's case) and use him for Ultra League

Its useful for gyms when people are trying to speedbump you with Gardevoir

Lastly, you only need MAX 1 Charge TM to get both DP and HS, no matter what you started with

The only thing that can mess this up is if someone crunches the numbers and finds out that STAB + DP does more damage than HS even when your opponent resists Fighting

UPDATE: Crunched the numbers and I got:

Dynamic Punch's Damage x STAB x PVP Multiplier -> 90 x 1.2 x 1.3 ->140.4
1x Resistance = 140.4 x 0.625 -> 87.75
2x Resistance = 140.4 x 0.625^2 -> 54.84
3x Resistance = 140.4 x 0.625^3 -> 34.27

Conversely Heavy Slam would be - > 70 x 1.3 -> 91

So it works?

Looks about even for 1x, but a win for 2x or 3x, so good against Fairies and Ghosts, big win against Gengar. Also a win against stuff with 1x resistance to fighting but 1x or more weakness to Steel.

Also looks like you didn't factor energy into it - but it doesn't matter, because both DP and HS take 50 energy in PvP. Sure, they are both 2 bar moves, but there's more variance in energy for PvP damage. Dazzling Gleam, for example, takes 70 energy, while Hydro Cannon takes 40. Of course, if you checked this, and just didn't say so, no worries.

On the DPS/TDO spreadsheet is shows Machamp having higher TDO than Hariyama, right? Unless you’re considering a 2500 cp cap?

I'm still undecided about that too, and so far I'm sticking to the switch to Metagross strategy too.

In general I'm prioritizing mons that I would have at least 2 maxed out anyway due to the second attack being useful (next for me are SE+Cr Tyranitar and SkA+Ovh Moltres). I've done it of course for the bargains (Charizard, Venusaur, Blastoise, Typhlosion and Gyarados), and current meta-relevant ones like Rhyperior, but there are still other candidates before Machamp.

One thing is for sure, though: if I finally decide to give it a go, I'd be willing to spend the extra TM for Heavy Slam once I spend 50k stardust.

I wouldn't, machamp first off isnt much use PvP wise, can do well as a hard tyranitar wall, but you'd not want heavy slam for that. And second, steel isnt much of a meta relevant type on offense for PvP, its relevant for defense. and Third, the move is useless for anything else, it might be ok for gym gardevoir/togekiss, but theres metagross for that and PvP as well.

"machamp first off isnt much use PvP wise"

Umm, what? Aside from hitting a lot of stuff for SE damage, and having weaknesses to less common types (Fairy, as well as Psychic and Flying which are more common), Counter is the strongest fast move in the game. Rank moves by the product of Damage per Turn and Energy per Turn, and Counter comes out at the very top:

Move DPT EPT D*E/T^2
Counter 4.0 3.5 14.0
Dragon Bth. 4.0 3.0 12.0
Shadow Claw 3.0 3.5 10.5
(also Poison Jab and Bullet Punch)
Vine Whip 2.5 4.0 10.0
Fire Spin 3.0 3.33 10.0
(also Dragon Tail)
Rock Throw 4.0 2.5 10.0

Everything else has DPT*EPT under 10. Counter is head and shoulders above the rest, both doing great damage and generating a lot of energy.

I still think Hariyama is a touch better, but Machamp is a solid contributor in PvP. The fact that Steel isn't a great attacking type is true, but if you're up against something that resists fighting, it's a game changer, and if you don't have anything else with Steel on the team, it adds a somewhat useful type to the mix.

What are the big PvP pokemon? Lugia, mewtwo, Giratina, Latios, Dragonite, Ho-oh Metagross and gyarados. All of those machamp doent hit for SE damage, and is weak to a number of them (mewtwo, metagross, latios, ho-oh, lugia). There is Tyranitar and not much else, but that is one pokemon compared to 8. Theres also focus blast mewtwo which can also deal with tyranitar. Theres also a fair number of pokemon that resist steel, Metagross, Kyogre, Ho-oh, Gyarados again. Its not like we are seeing blis/chan/lax teams every game like they were in gyms

Counter might be a the best fast move, but like meteor mash, hydrocannon and frenzy plant being the best charge moves, that doesnt matter if you dont have the defensive stats to survive or are going against frequent unfavorable match ups, which machamp does in PvP.

Its better to just pring a metagross than use a heavy slam machamp because 1, metagross resists a lot more pokemon including the dragons people love, 2 is much more naturally bulky, machamp has defense equal to aerodactyl and a bit more HP, meanwhile metagross has much more defense, a better typing, and a much higher attack. In the very specific situations of going against tyranitar, fighting does fantastically, but that is one senario compared to many, many more unfavorable ones.

Steel isnt a relevant offensive type, its relevant because its defensive typing. If we had fairy types in PvP more, that'd be a point for machamp, but again, metagross is better.

"What are the big PvP pokemon? Lugia, mewtwo, Giratina, Latios, Dragonite, Ho-oh Metagross and gyarados."

You're restricting yourself to Master League. What about Steelix, Altaria, Blastoise, Venusaur, Charizard, Meganium, Cresselia, and many others? The Regis have great defensive stats, and are underused in PvP, which will change when people figure that out, as well as a weakness to fighting. Sure, one of Machamp/Hariyama's role in the Master League is countering Tyranitar, but not many of my pals around here use anything with a double weakness (except to Ice or Bug) in any of the leagues, so Ttar isn't that prominent. Houndoom usually covers dark, and gets Fire on the side, with a better overall profile, no double weaknesses, and he resists steel too.

Is Metagross better for PvP overall than Machamp, on average? Sure. Until you decide to fight Candela, or anyone who is known to use Fire, Ground, Dark, or Ghost pokemon. Then Metagross becomes a liability.

"In the very specific situations of going against tyranitar, fighting does fantastically, but that is one senario compared to many, many more unfavorable ones."

There's plenty more specific situations where Hariyama does better than Metagross. And plenty (even more) where Metagross is better. The question the OP posted was is it worth it to buy a second attack for Machamp. My answer is use Hariyama and buy it if you can afford it. Your answer is don't use Machamp. We're both right in our own ways.

"Counter might be a the best fast move, (sic)"

No, Counter is head and shoulders above the other fast moves. Dragon Breath is the only one that's close. It's like Shadow Ball Mewtwo against Hyper Beam Mewtwo. Of course typing matters. Don't bring your Shadow Ball Mewtwo to fight Ursaring. I posted the numbers to demonstrate just how much better Counter is than the other moves.

Further, there's another Pvp strategy that can work. When you go up against a hard counter, don't switch out, use shields. Your Hariyama beats his Tyranitar, and he brings in Espeon. You can take two Future Sight hits with shields, and pound him with Counter, doing enough damage to make it worthwhile. Then, when Hariyama gets KO'd, you get choice of what to hit back with, Espeon is almost dead, and then you can switch if you need to, to best counter his third pokemon. The point is that while a foe can block two charged attacks, they can't block a fast attack, and Counter is the best fast attack in the game, bar none. Even against resistance, it still comes up better than a lot of other fast attacks, and against weaknesss, it's almost as effective as a charged attack. Do the math.

In PvP the regis arent used right now, as you said, which means they are irrelivent for consideration, they arent being used right now. We dont say X pokemon is good because its a raid counter to a pokemon that will be in raids sometime in the future, we add it as a good attacker when that time comes, not before.

Many of those nonmaster league pokemon you listed also resist machamp (and haryama); Altaria, cresselia, venasaur, charizard,

PvP pokemon are high bulk, and good/usable attack, not glass cannons like espeon this is why we see pokemon like tyranitar, dragonite, metagross, giratina, altaria, meganium, blastoise and such and not Gengar, espeon, alakazam, salamence, shiftry, breloom, and such.

Yeah, I agree the numbers are good, but you are only looking at a narrow window, thats raw damage of one move and doesnt consider how other moves fair agaisnt common pokemon. Dragons are some of the most common pokemon used, even though in raw numbers, machamp with counter out damaged dragons/others in a vacuum, when considering real world battles (which really should be considered, and in a vacuum, a lot of pokemon look a lot better than they really are, Blissey say's hi) things dont tip in fightings favor nearly as much as they did in gyms, which is where a lot of the basis for fighting being good comes from.

For the thing about ground and fire types, I agree there, but a number of fire types are weak to ground, as well as ground types, and most ghost types tend to be either glass cannons or super tanks. The glass cannons are gone from the start, as PvP's a bulk's game, and they dont have that. The tanks like dusknoir/clops are good, I have a 98%r ive been using, and we all know how giratina does, though its played more as a bulky dragon. Also note the ghosts resist fighting while not resisting steel, which is more a point in favor of metagross

I know the OP was about using a second move on machamp, my point was that its not worth getting one because the pokemon itself doesnt get as much effectiveness with its main STAB typing, and if a pokemon isnt going to be see much effectiveness with its primary STAB, what will a far less useful second move cover? Machamp and haryama re both very similar, having trade offs damage wise and bulk wise, but the point is the same for both, the moves and type doing give the kind of coverage and utility a game move like PvP would need. If one is dead set on having a fighting type for a team, Haryama is the better of the two, but neither are overly good against the majority of the top mon for each league, they have their niche matches, but not many

You still see glass cannons, especially in Ultra. If one can wear an opponent down and out of their shields with something reasonably frail and fast, they have a great use.

Breloom especially I do very well with, with it's high level limit and the fact it carries an off type charge move. Hit hit till the move charges, swap out.

You need to be willing to intelligently sacrifice mon, swaps and shields to win.

Also, if you can take down an opponent with an off type move rather than using a swap and waste the cool down, it's a much better call.

But why willingly sacrifice one third of your team when you can have a tankier pokemon that also gets rid of shields fast, but can also take the hits better? Things like Giratina or other pokemon with 3 bars that also burn shields on the oppoent but not need to burn yours? If you as anyone would you rather give up one third of your team to beat both shields or only half the HP of one pokemon to beat the shields, which would you take? Coming out with another pokemon still standing and your shields seems better than coming out with both shields and not one pokemon

Intelligently giving a pokemon up is definitely something needed at time if in a very bad match up. Why switch out when you have the move charged up?

If they have shields, assume they'll shield any move.

Major advantage in coming back in and hitting a charge move immediately rather than having it splash.

So charge moves retain being charged when switching out?

...Yes.

Also I wouldn't shield against a Giratina unless way down in the yellow or on my last mon.

Master is the same half-dozenish mon in most cases.

Everything is more fun in Great and, especially, Ultra.

The only reason to use a Machamp in Ultra league is if you don't have a Hariyama. I guess some people might not have a Hariyama, but for anyone who does, Machamp isn't much use in PvP. It's a niche hard counter to Tyranitar in Master league and that's it.

EDIT: Good point in posts below, legacy Machamp can be good, Stone Edge is a great asset over Hariyama.

I saw this question earlier and knew it was inevitable you'd take an opportunity to knock Machamp again

When the main pokemon people use resist fighting, what is someone supposed to say? Machamp's good agaisnt pokemon its weak to and has a disadvantage against? thats not a false statement saying it isnt good. I said machamp does have match ups, but they are very, very limitied, ie basically one pokemon presently, compared to many, many it doesnt. If it were any other pokemon, would you say that's a good, reliable PvP pokemon compared to the many other better ones?

You also seem to have missed other posts on different questions where I said machamp was good, as most people seem to do. I'm not going to lie and say machamps always good in situations where it actually isnt

"I said machamp does have match ups, but they are very, very limitied, ie basically one pokemon presently, compared to many, many it doesnt."

Yes, and many people here have said that you often overlook many of Machamp's favorable matchups. It seems that your experience of PvP is limited to foes that only use a few pokemon, so your input data is skewed. I've fought plenty of foes that use pokemon weak to fighting that aren't Tyranitar. And there are plenty of other Steel pokemon that are strong in PvP, but don't have the Psychic typing, so are weak to fighting, which Hariyama/Machamp can pick on.

You can keep going about things the way you have, cocksure in your 'knowledge', or you can listen to the multiple voices of experience here, almost all of whom have been saying for months to you that while Fighting pokemon aren't the strongest pokemon in the game, they are surprisingly effective, and are ones you shouldn't dismiss casually. I'm not aware about anyone saying that about, say, Bug, for example, and everyone knows that Ice is very specialized. But so many things are weak to fighting, including plenty of good PvP pokemon (especially ones that your foes haven't discovered yet but are available for PvP, a situation totally unlike a raid boss that hasn't come out yet.)

One of my early Master league battles was with an old friend who has been playing all the main series games for years. I brought a power team, Dragonite, Mewtwo, Metagross. I don't remember all of his team, but I do remember that he used a Ursaring very effectively, using Play Rough against Dragonite and Close Combat against Metagross, and kicked my butt. Wish I had a Hariyama to take that Ursaring on.

As you gain more experience with PvP (like all of us, it's pretty new), I suspect you'll start to see situations where Hariyama is effective. Other options are Poliwrath (with water), Blaziken (with fire), Infernape (also with fire, not as good, but more tanky), and then things like Pinsir (Bug with fighting), etc. Even Raichu with Brick Break (not a great charged move, but cheap at 10k dust and 25 candy) has its uses in the Great League.

I added Heavy Slam to the Machamp I use for gym fights.

+ Super effective against fairy defenders.
+ Neutral against flying, psychic, poison, and bug defenders.
- Resisted by Charizard, Gyarados, and Slowbro/king.

I'll consider having a Legacy Machamp with Stone Edge (I know these are really rare nowadays) and then, give it Dynamic Punch as a secondary charge move. It'll be a nasty surprise on PVP, and worth considering of course.

Yes, I'd trade most legendaries for that legacy Machamp. Great pokemon.

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