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What would be the top-tier non-legendaries once Gen 4 arrives?

Since Gen 2, the top-tier non-legendaries have been Blissey, Machamp, Dragonite and Tyranitar.

Gen 3 did not significantly change the list. Hariyama failed to displace Machamp and Salamence failed to displace Dragonite (though Rayquaza is strictly better), while Metagross got terrible moves and Smack Down made Tyranitar even more powerful.

According to the Safest Bets for Gen 4 article, Blissey and Machamp will not face any new competition. Dragonite is likely to lose its place as Garchomp and the legendary dragons are too powerful. I believe that Tyranitar will be able to fend off Darkrai (as each player would only get one) and Giratina (which is not resistant to the types that it is super-effective against) to remain top-tier.

Metagross with Meteor Mash and Rhyperior with a double-Rock moveset would be candidates for the top tier. The Looking Ahead chart (https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/sites/pokemongo/files/2018-02/ladder.png) indicates that both would be safe for three generations (Dialga will be nerfed, may not get a double-Steel set, requires RC and cannot be placed in gyms), but the chart has several mistakes (Darkrai marked as non-legendary, Gardevoir spelt wrongly). As for Garchomp, the era of the non-legendary generalist dragon may be over.

What do you think? (I have not played the Gen III or later console games, so I may have missed out several relevant factors.)

Asked by hkn6 years 8 months ago

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Answers

On the non-legendary front? Excluding the cases you mentioned above:

Electric: Electivire likely to replace Jolteon, even if it doesn't get Wild Charge.
Bug: Yanmega likely to be added alongside Pinsir and Scizor
Fairy: Togekiss likely to replace/stand alongside Gardevoir, should a fairy fast move be implemented
Flying: Honchkrow is it gets Sky Attack, though it will be glass cannon-y
Grass: Tangrowth to replace FP Venusaur should it get Power Whip and/or Grass Knot. RL/GK Roserade possibly with it, glassier though
Ground: Rhyperior and/or Garchomp contest Groudon. Rhyperior needs Drill Run to stand out, Garchomp will have impeccable TDO against electric types thanks to triple resistance.
Ice: Mamoswine, Weavile, Glaceon are all potential frontrunners
Poison: Roserade to replace Victreebel, Muk still has higher TDO. Gengar has untouchable DPS

I think that's it, up through Gen 4 anyway. If I missed any let me know.

We might get some new moves as well that could change the landscape. Ground certainly needs them...

This is true, I've seen people calling for Earth Power to be added as a reliable charge move. I based my analysis on existing moves, we've seen before it's not easy to speculate unreleased moves as they can change at the last minute.

That is all we can do at this point. I'm just super hopeful they change up the move scene. Niantic is far overdue, IMO, for such an overhaul.

Note that Garchomp and Dragonite have the same base attack stat. Garchomp will not displace Dragonite if it doesn't get DT/O or a new even better moveset.
You're absolutely right about Tyranitar. Even if we were able to get more than one Darkrai, the vast majority of players don't have nearly enough RC to power up multiple teams of legendaries, certainly not ones that are only a bit better than the best non-legendary.
Dialga not being able to be put into gyms is irrelevant and even nerfed it has much better stats than Metagross, not to mention typing. What gives MM Metagross a chance for relevancy still is Dialga requiring RC and potentially being also the best Dragon attacker.
An obvious one you didn't mention is Mamoswine, which has by far the best stats out of non-legendary ice types in all generations. Kyurem is in gen 5 but again, it's a legendary that requires RC.

Electivire, Togekiss, Honchkrow, Tangrowth, Roserade, Weavile and Glaceon have good potential, although probably won't make it to quite top tier. Still, top of type specialists is what this game is currently about.

Garchomp: Can it learn DT, OR and/or better moves in the main games? Another consideration is whether the era of the non-legendary dragon generalist is over (or will be over with Gen 4).

Tyranitar: Even hardcore players with more than enough RC would continue using Tyranitar. According to the Safest Bets article, Darkrai with FA/FP (its actual moves may be worse) would have 22% more DPS than Tyranitar, but 18% lower TDO.

Metagross: With MM, it would be a beast on gym defence (which Dialga cannot do). There is also the possibility that Dialga may not get a double-Steel set.

Mamoswine: Probably a contender. With a 9% nerf, Kyurem would have the same attack as Mamoswine, but more bulk. What role will Ice-types have, apart from gym offence against flying dragons?

Garchomp can learn DT/O and its movepool doesn't contain any moves that could make for a new powerful charge attack. A better quick move might be possible.

22% is a LOT of DPS, I didn't actually remember that Darkrai could have that big of an edge. Considering past examples, Mewtwo and Dragon-types were all preferable to Tyra for countering Latis and some of them had a smaller DPS advantage than that. If getting 6 powered up Darkrai was a realistic possibility, Tyranitar would absolutely lose value.

Metagross: Dealing damage as a gym defender simply isn't as relevant as being bulky. Dragonite has amazing defensive DPS but we don't call it a beast either. It's true that Metagross would have impressive defensive damage with a better charge move, but going down in less than 20 seconds even at full motivation means it doesn't have a shot at being a great defender.
As you say, Dialga may not get a double steel set. Then again, Metagross may not get MM, despite it being in the code.

Ice is SE into Dragon, Flying, Grass, Ground. Hard countering double weak targets is at least a definite niche. Rayquaza might make a comeback only after gen 4 is released and has a mega form later down the line which will probably cause a new raid wave. A sufficiently strong ice-type could also make for a decent attacker into gyms.

Garchomp is actually two points behind Dragonite in attack, though this difference would be largely inconsequential if the relationship between the two egg trees is anything to go by. However it does have significantly more overall bulk than Dragonite, plus a secondary typing that can make it more or less favorable depending on the situation. Playing the long con, I can see it being a go-to for Gen 5's Zekrom raids.

I think Dragonite will be safe for some time until more people get Gibles. Then we might see Dragonite slowly get phased out.

I must have misread the table. Garchomp with DT/O will absolutely surpass Dragonite as an attacker, but without DT/O, it's not so clear. Will be interesting to see what its movepool ends up being.

And Zekrom should absolutely be a fabulous target for Garchomp, although Dialga will probably take the crown of top counter against dragon attacks.

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