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Re-evaluation of Ho-Oh's moves - they are good!

It is almost a consensus that Ho-Oh has bad moves. However, after running some calculation of neutral-circle-DPS, I have changed my mind. Ho-Oh actually has good moves and can be potentially useful!

First, let me state very clearly that how neutral-circle-DPS is calculated. It assumes no effectiveness, no STAB, and that energy is perfectly used (no waste). Therefore it can evaluate moves independently of specific Pokemon/matchup.
The formula is:
DPS_circle = (DPE_quick + DPE_charge)/(1/EPS_quick + 1/EPS_charge).

Some examples of good move set and their circle DPS:
a. Counter + Dynamic Punch, 19.82
b. Shadow Claw + Shadow Ball, 19.81
c. Fire Spin + Overheat, 20.00
And some examples of "bad" moves:
a. Mud Slap + Earthquake, 16.05
b. Bubble + Water Pulse, 15.08

Now let's get back to Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh has access to Solar Beam, one of the best Charge Move. Extrasensory + Solar Beam yields 19.75 circle DPS, which is almost the same as C/DP! Besides, Ho-Oh has the stats (tho subject to adjustment) to back it up as a supreme generalist to deal with Pokemon that doesn't resist the powerful Solar Beam.

What's really wrong with Ho-Oh is not his moves, but that his typing mismatches with his best move - Solar Beam, which hurts his usefulness. On one hand, he doesn't get STAB from Solar Beam; on the other hand, two of the three types (Water, Rock, and Ground) that Solar Beam is SE into are SE into Ho-Oh himself as well, which kind of like Dragonite fighting another Dragonite.
Solar Beam itself also has some problems. Grass is resisted by seven types, unlike Ghost which is resisted only by two. Such drawback further restricts the use of Ho-Oh as a generalist. Luckily, the current meta is friendly enough for Ho-Oh - aside from Dragonite, and the seldom Muk and Steelix you see in gyms, it can deal with pretty much everything. Fire also helps to resist Dazzling Gleam.

In conclusion, Extrasensory + Solar Beam Ho-Oh is like an enhanced Exeggutor. If you are fine using Exeggutor in sweeping gyms, then you will probably find Ho-Oh suitable in your squad.
As a final remark, Confusion + Solar Beam yields 20.13 circle DPS, the highest of all move Combo I've run. If eggy has Mewtwo's attack he'll be the king.

And as always, any discussion is welcomed.

Asked by bioweapon7 years 8 months ago

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Answers

This is well written and reasoned and as to your overall point I guess I agree, he has strong moves for general use or sweeping gyms.

The problem is it is now the age of specialists. Also, it's hard to get to level 25 without being able to comfortably cruise through most gyms anymore. Add to that many of us players with good rosters already do not need any gym sweepers. So in function it's hard to find great situations for players where he is worth the dust or candy. He falls nicely into the catagory of mons that are pretty good but it's hard to find a need for it. That's a rather large group so at least he's not going to be lonely.

How about Shadow Ball Mewtwo? It's generalist-oriented as well right? I figure that if people like Confusion + Shadow Ball Mewtwo (as suggested by my poll), they should accept EX + Solar Beam Ho-Oh as well.
Besides, Gym sweeper still is needed. At round three everything is weak. If you switch, you lose energy and it costs some time, so using a sweeper might actually be more efficient than using different specialists, per my empirical experiences. Switching is just annoying if you have to do it every new battle.

Mewtwo has a 300 attack stat. This elevates him into the stratosphere of the specialists-especially where SB is SE. It's only a nice add on that he is strong enough to be a sweeper too but the main reason to power up Mewtwo right now is to fight a Mewtwo.Plus he has a stab quick move further sepparating him in a damage scenario against a general use sweeper like Ho-Oh.

Once again, if you have trouble with gyms he could do OK if you don't have other good gym sweepers already.

So....in Raid Ho-Oh is less than Mewtwo. In gym sweeping it is less than Dragonite (to be confirmed). Do I get it right? Poor Ho-Oh....hard to find a use for you

Somewhat. You may find that rare gym that is loaded with defenders that line up nicely with his movesets. However considering how few things resist dragon in gyms is that something worth investing in? So yeah that's kind of where we end up. On a side note, I'm sure he is getting nerfed too but I hope when they do that they give him some good stab moves to compensate. Then we can feel better about him.

Can only speak for myself but I would consider Shadow ball as most of all a raid specialist that can also be used as a gym sweeper. SE against Mew and Celebi gives it a good role in two heavy battle situations.

But right now we build teams for extreme raids only, right?
For normal raids(minimul number +2 players let's say) you don't need more then lvl 30 counters to get + 3 (or 2 in Lugia and Arti case), right?.
For gyms Dragonites and machamps (now maybe I will use my maxed 100 iv fs/oh Moltres) ate just enough.
From that oerspective what should I do with a Ho-Oh? Will be faster vs. a Bape than Zapdos or Raikou?
Will be gaster than bs/sob Exe vs. Rhydon?
If yes I will max one with joy, otherwise with the feeling of obligation by respect :).

Using Ho-Oh without switching might be faster to take down the whole gym in 2nd or 3rd round, compared to switching to specialist every battle. Also helpful if you do it with other player(s).

A good Dragonite is just fine for that mop-up role, as long as there isn't any ice left with any strength.

I'm yet to find the gym that needs more then my db/dc and dt/o(for all 3 rounds :)) ). Gym scene in my city is lame nowadays from battle perspective. Is nice from visual perspective, mystic people do nice thematic ones :).

EX/Brave Bird seems like a cruise control Machamp solo...if by then you still need to finish up your 3rd team of Machamps

Isn't steel wing one of the highest DPS moves in the game without Stab?

It hits SE into. Rhydon (and Solar Beam will definitely. Completely destroy it), Ttar, and really only NVE vs Gyarados and fire types for common defenders.

Yea it will do as well! Forget to mention that. Pair Solar Beam with either will be good enough.

Sounds great until you realize both Tyranitar and Rhydon get SE which is rather hard to dodge and will destroy Ho-Oh.

If Ho oh is that strong it might pull off Solar beam and finish the fight before either can use stone edge, but of course it is double super effective

Steel Wing is the highest DPS fast move, but it charges energy slowly.

Nice read. The only thing that makes Solar beam suboptimal in my eyes is that it's one bar in respective to Outrage and Shadow ball.

I don't want to deal 1000 damage to a 250 CP Pokemon. That having said, Ho-oh might be the only legendary I consider to power up next to Mewtwo and possibly Raikou.

Releasing a Solar Beam and KO the opponent by it is useful in speedy gym take over, if you want to be the sole battle winner (enter battles first, release Solar Beam, and give other late joiners error) or the trainer is actively feeding (finish it off before it is fed)

Agree with the 1 bar/2 bar points...

2 bar is MUCH more useful...My maxed Dragonite with Outrage can usually 1 shot most mons already so there is no need for a 180 damage Solar Beam...Also, having to power up Ho-oh means less rare candies for other legendaries...

Electric typing (Raikou, Zapdos) makes the most sense since most Electrics are not very tanky currently...

Ideally, we can hope Niantic makes Psychic 2 bar again and Mewtwo can be the premier psychic...Shadow Ball is better due to 2 bars as well for a sweeper...

Dragonite is supreme since not many things resist Dragon (fairy mostly now...steel is non-existent really and anything with steel is weak to begin with).

Yeah, that is not something to be dismissed too quickly. A generalist for sweeping through low motivation gyms is much better if it has a multibar charge move. I think Exeggutor with Confusion/Seedbomb is much better at finishing off gyms than Confusion/Solar Beam.

The problem I have with this thread is that because you did Circle DPS without Stab for everyone it overvalues the high combo that Ho-oh.

You would need to calculate in stab, and then compare neutral matchups to really look at generic sweeping.

Interesting analysis, but I fear it doesn't go deep enough. I've put together what I call Cycle DPS, where you calculate how many quick attacks it takes to charge up one charged attack, and then add up all the damage from both, and divide by the time required to use both. That gives a more realistic assessment of how the pokemon will perform in a real world situation (instead of the simple DPE sum for both attack types). Neglecting STAB is also a weakness, since a mon either gets it or they don't, so might as well build it in.

That said, my findings mostly agree with yours. Ho-Oh's Extrasensory and Solar Beam come in at 19.46 CDPS. This is a bit below C/DP (for Machamp) at 23.78, and more below DT/O (Dragonite) at 25.17, best attack in the game (so far). Extrasensory and Fire Blast are a tiny bit higher (19.57), so these two are comparable (the STAB makes up for the lower damage (140 vs. 180) of Fire Blast. Ironically, Steel Wing is a tiny bit better than Extrasensory against neutral opponents (since neither Steel Wing nor Extrasensory have STAB, and while ES has slightly better EPS, Steel Wing has better DPS, so that's about a wash.

Where Ho-Oh gets his strength from is his strong statistics. The very high CP means his attack and defense are that much higher, at comparable levels, than any other mon. So the fact that his movesets are weaker becomes less important when they are being driven by higher stats. It's the same reason that Macargo with rock moves isn't a Moltres killer - Moltres is doubly weak to rock, and Macargo is doubly resistant to fire, which should make Macargo able to destroy Moltres, but Moltres's max CP is 3272 while Macargo's is 1543. Double weakness and double resistance aren't quite enough to make up that CP difference. With Ho-Oh coming at 4650 (or so Gamepress reports - actual release may vary), his really high attack and defense can make up for a lot of small deficiencies.

?. Very well thought.
Like I said in the post, I try to to evaluate moves separately from specific Pokémon therefore I don't throw in STAB. My conclusion is Ho-Oh has good moves but he don't get STAB and the typing doesn't help. It is just to say that his moves are good but his typing wastes it.

Ho-Oh Stats will go down.
Just like Mewtwo's.
Probably 9% like him^.

So it'll probably be:
193hp 240att 274def
How did bioweapon calculate it all?
Do you need to re-calculate?

Not factoring super effectiveness is understandable since it won't be SE into every Pokemon when battling but ignoring STAB just puts Ho-oh's numbers closer to the top when they shouldn't be in a realistic setting, since if a Pokemon has STAB on its moves it'll have STAB no matter what it's up against.

You say it's a better Exeggutor but an Exeggutor with the same moveset will deal more DPS due to STAB and though less survivable it's not a glass cannon either, 180 stamina is decent.

I don't agree about solar beam. Grass' most useful asset is against Water, you don't want to use Ho-oh against water, period. You also don't want to use ho-oh against rock (double effectiveness agianst ho-oh.) that leaves just ground that's it's useful for. Against Water and rock, exeggutor is the winner. Solar beam does indeed have high DPS but it's not the right move for ho-oh.

IMO they should change its quick moves to wing attack and ember. You now have a clear choice to make it a grass/ice/steel specialist or a grass/fighting specialist, without giving it the very best moves (seems to be niantics way of keeping it's power in check.)

Its current movepool makes little sense.