And another snorlax question
How much worse is a lick/bs than a zh/bs as a defender
I have a 95% lick that is level 20ish. Worth powering him up?
Answers
While the above 3 answers are helpful in a general sense, the answer that you are looking for is that on defense, all things being equal, a ZH Snorlax deals significantly more damage than a Lick one.
Results here:
1st pair of results: same Machamp, C/DP, vs both Snorlax versions - time to win is similar but Lick deals less damage (~41% less). Note that Machamp is weak to Psychic.
2nd pair of results: Tyranitar, B/SE vs both Snorlaxes, time to win is the same but again ZH deals more damage than Lick (~29% more). Note T-rex's dark type resistance.
3rd pair of results: Dragonite, DTO vs both Snorlax versions. Time to win is the same, but again ZH deals more damage to attacker (~20% more). Note Dragonite's typing.
All results obtained basis level 30 100% attackers and Snorlaxes at level 30, 100% IVs as well.
Cutting and pasting the Machamp and Dragonite matchups below FYI.
No further discussion or subjective opinions are needed.
https://www.pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/MACHAMP/quickMoves/COUNTER_FAST/cinMoves/DYNAMIC_PUNCH/levels/30/ivs/FFF/defenders/SNORLAX/quickMoves/ZEN_HEADBUTT_FAST/cinMoves/BODY_SLAM/levels/30/ivs/FFF/strategies/DODGE_SPECIALS/DEFENSE?includeDetails=true&dodgeStrategy=DODGE_REACTION_TIME2
https://www.pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/MACHAMP/quickMoves/COUNTER_FAST/cinMoves/DYNAMIC_PUNCH/levels/30/ivs/FFF/defenders/SNORLAX/quickMoves/LICK_FAST/cinMoves/BODY_SLAM/levels/30/ivs/FFF/strategies/DODGE_SPECIALS/DEFENSE?includeDetails=true&dodgeStrategy=DODGE_REACTION_TIME2
https://www.pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/DRAGONITE/quickMoves/DRAGON_TAIL_FAST/cinMoves/OUTRAGE/levels/30/ivs/FFF/defenders/SNORLAX/quickMoves/ZEN_HEADBUTT_FAST/cinMoves/BODY_SLAM/levels/30/ivs/FFF/strategies/DODGE_SPECIALS/DEFENSE?includeDetails=true&dodgeStrategy=DODGE_REACTION_TIME2
https://www.pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/DRAGONITE/quickMoves/DRAGON_TAIL_FAST/cinMoves/OUTRAGE/levels/30/ivs/FFF/defenders/SNORLAX/quickMoves/LICK_FAST/cinMoves/BODY_SLAM/levels/30/ivs/FFF/strategies/DODGE_SPECIALS/DEFENSE?includeDetails=true&dodgeStrategy=DODGE_REACTION_TIME2
While I don't disagree with your numbers (I think that is rather impossible,) you completely missed the second part of their question..."I have a 95% lick that is level 20ish. Worth powering him up?"
Being that bs is a legacy move, obtaining a zh/bs Snorlax is impossible. Though you answered the first part of his question, I find it rather irrelevant. The only comparison that would make sense is l/bs vs the current best moveset, which is either zh/hs or zh/hb. Only based on my experience, any bs Snorlax is more difficult to deal with than a hs Snorlax. HS is fairly easy to dodge IMO and isn't spammed nearly as much. If you want to run more numbers, say l/bs vs zh/hs, those would be interesting in answering the question of powering up the licker, or waiting for a zh/hs Snorlax.
The OP's question as whether he should power up his Lick/BS 96% Snorlax was not a stand-alone query. Otherwise he wouldn't have asked for the comparison between a ZH one and a Lick one.
Context, dude.
Clearly the OP wanted to know the performance characteristics between ZH and Lick, and base his power-up decision on the comparative difference. And I've given him the information to do just that.
And now you've thrown even more confusion by comparing between Snorlaxes with other movesets that the OP didn't ask for.
I understand what he asked for. He also said "I have a 95% lick that is level 20ish. Worth powering him up?"
Though you can assume he has a zh/bs Snorlax, because he asked for the comparison, it also begs the question as to the IVs of his zh/bs Snorlax. He mentioned the 95% lick one, but what is his other one we are comparing that to? Are we comparing that to a 30% zh/bs Snorlax? If we are, your information is great...but then I would question gym placement because of the difference in cp.
You may be right, but don't read more into his question than the information he provided. He may NOT have a zh/bs Snorlax, in which case the points I brought up would be more relevant.
This right here is the fundamental problem:
Though you can assume he has a zh/bs Snorlax, because he asked for the comparison, it also begs the question as to the IVs of his zh/bs Snorlax.
In my original answer, I didn't assume he has a ZH/BS Snorlax. (Nor would the results I gave in my original post be invalidated whether the assumption is true or not.) I showed him that between the 2 Snorlaxes he wanted to know about, Lick was 20-40% behind. Would he want to power that up? (answer is self explanatory).
And by the way, in giving the answers you did, did you assume that the OP has any other Snorlaxes with other movesets? No, there was no need to. Did you delve into relative IVs in your answers? No you did not. If you proceeded on those bases then it is unfair and hypocritical of you to level that as a criticism of my answer.
But the difference between your answers and mine are that mine addressed what the OP wanted to compare, whereas yours don't. No assumption of what other Snorlaxes the OP has/does not have are/were needed.
And by the way, your original answer to the OP was also factually incorrect. You said:
because with bs, they will be taking the damage from that, not the quick move.
Wrong. I invite you to review the numbers which show that ZH deals between 20-40% more damage than Lick, at least to 3 of Snorlax's most prominent counters.
Work on your reading comprehension. He asked if he should power his lick Snorlax up. You never answered that question.
So my answer was wrong. You don't have to be an arrogant jerk about it. I was giving my opinion based on experience, which can be more valuable than simulations, as there are flaws in simulations.
I brought in the other info because they might be curious what a future Snorlax hatch might yield them, compared to lick bs.
I guess maybe the rest of us can just piss off and you can answer all the questions on this site. Or better yet, create your own Pokemon Go question and answer site, so that you don't have to listen to the stupid opinions of other people.
Thank you, that is what I suspected you wanted to know. Like I said, an analysis, like he did, but with current avalible movesets, would be benificial to helping you make your decision. If he is butt-hurt over all of it, I will do it for you. I would still say that bs, regardless of quick move, is better than any current option...but that is just my opinion based on experience.
He put together a very flawed analysis though. Who is going to go into a fight against snorlax with a machamp weak to psychic and not dodge a single zen headbutt? It throws the whole analysis out the window. Even with an attacker not weak to psychic you should be dodging ZH, it's one of the easier moves to dodge. Against lick it's extremely difficult to dodge all of them since it's a fast move so you'll eat some, but still have to time dodges to avoid body slam. Against ZH, it's easy to dodge everything.
Your sims assume dodging specials. You'll get better battle performance if you dodge powerful quick attacks like ZH, especially given that you'll be prepped to hit the BS dodges more accurately that can come really fast.
For example, I'd choose B/SE Tyranitar for this matchup since it resist both Snorlax attacks and is great for hitting the quick BS dodges. I get the following results using dodge all -- Lick does better.
ZH/BS -- 43s, 91 HP remains (dodge all)
L/BS -- 43s, 85 HP remains (dodge all)
If I assume only dodge all for ZH and power through Licks, then ZH does slightly better in sim. However, it would likely be worse in real world battles due to the discussed increased rate of missed BS dodges.
ZH/BS -- 43s, 91 HP remains (dodge all)
L/BS -- 40s, 91 HP remains (dodge special)
My real world battle results are even better than (realistic dodging) sim in this case. I typically lose only 1/3 to 1/4th health against a ZH/BS Snorlax, less health than some of the other non-Blissey defenders.
To the guy that ran the sims. So you don't dodge ZH, one of the easier moves to dodge, with your machamp? That's where you fail in your analysis. Why wouldn't you do that considering Machamp is weak to psychic? In a real world battle you are not going to be spamming counter, absorbing every ZH, and expect to dodge every body slam. That's just an extremely unlikely scenario.
I think the short answer is that lick/bs is only 2nd to zh/bs but by 20-40% damage wise.
I powered up my 87 IV only after powering up 78 and 80 IV zh/bs but the 8-9 IV makes a big difference for me in gym placement because I am only level 33...I have a lot more options with the higher IV but still have a pretty good mon. Someone else on this sight thinks it will be the best moveset for PvP and if so will make even more useful...
Lots of answer but in the current meta 95% iv is the relevant information about this Snorlax.
Moveset is irrelevant, who in the world would care about 29% less damage with lick when attacking a gym?
By having 95% iv it will be relevant in gyms already at level 31-32, meaning that it will earn it´s 10 coins a day being positioned in a medium slot, hopefully along with other relevant Snorlaxes and Blisseys.
Composition of the gym is the main factor to make attackers leaving it alone to focus on easier gyms.
Save the candies for the gym rebalance.
Here is my ranking just from experience battling ~15000 battles.
- ZH/BS
- ZH/HS
- L/BS
- ZH/HB
- ZH/E
- The rest
While L/BS 'feels' like it should be better than ZH/HS, the damage from Lick is really insignificant that you can tank a BS or two and still come out even, if that makes any sense. HS also has this weird animation, but you get used to that after a while.
I didn't read all the replies (too long and a lot of biotching). My thoughts are this: I would power it up once I find out about the gym rework which some people thing will be coming by the end of the month.
If you need a defender right away and have the candies then go for it. My friend has a 96% L/BS Snorlax over 3000CP and hes a pretty solid defender.
But Niantic could make some gym tweaks and/or tweaks/buffs/nerfs to pokemon in the next major update that should be coming soon.
Wait it out and see what happens and then power it up. Unless you need someone now. If that is the case I would 100% level up any decent Lick Bodyslam Snorlax.
