I agree the only value of some of those defenders is high cp for placement at the top of gyms.
I love to see Dragonite and Gyarados as defenders. I have two kick ass Joltens maxed out working on a third and I have been blessed with more Lapras then I care to mention as to not to upset people that cant find one.
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Defender Rhydon and Vaporeon-the best of the rest?
'Best of the rest' meaning after Snorlax and Blissey obviously, but taking a look at the new 'Big 7' takedown graphics on this page, it occurred to me that some of these Tier 2.5 defenders are more of a joke that I initially thought. Here I propose that Rhydon and Vaporeon (disregarding their CP) are the best after Blissey and Snorlax.
Assumptions:
A1: Every attacker has a good Vaporeon
A2: Every attacker has a good Jolteon
A3: Every attacker has a good Jynx
A4: Every attacker has a good Machamp
Out of these 4, A4 is the one that is most likely to be violated. But A1-A2 should hold, equally. A3 depends on biome, but I'm sitting on almost 800 Jynx candy now......
Obviously Blissey and Snorlax will not be jokes. With Machamp and optimal moves, Blissey takes 48.5 seconds to take down and Snorlax, 28 seconds.
But look at this:
Dragonite: 13.5 Seconds (Jynx)
Tyranitar: 14.5 Seconds (Machamp)
Gyarados: 16.5 Seconds (Jolteon or Magneton)
Rhydon on Vaporeon, however, have their best worst common takedowns at 20 seconds +
The fastest attacker into Rhydon, the venus fly trap, takes 18 seconds, but no one powers a Victreebel due to the prescence of Egg man and venusaur. Take away the venus fly trap, the next attacker needs 20 seconds (Machamp again).
Equally, Vaporeon is countered surprisingly quickly by the purple ghost. The next best option, Jolteon, takes 24.5 seconds (This is pretty much snorlax level!!)
Granted 20 seconds of survival on a rhydon is nothing to brag about compared to 13.5 on a dnite, but the time difference from a dragonite-vaporeon takedown is almost the same difference between a vaporeon-snorlax takedown...just let that sink in
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So the only real conclusion is that Snorlax and Blissey can defend. All other Mons cannot.
Question, aren't Jynx and even Machamp a little beat up after that fight?
In regards to Rhydon, my Vape can take down two and then possibly some Tyranitar too. That's pretty much the definition of a weak defender. But that is because they are poor defenders by some metric except Snorlax and Blissey.
Simply put, anything that you wouldn't mind prestiging against with a pokemon at half the CP is going to easy to beat with an attacker at the same level. That is even possile against Snorlax, it just takes a while longer. Blissey is the only one that is impossible to prestige with a single half CP pokemon in the time allotted. But placing only Blisseys in a gym would make it difficult for your teammates to build up.
The best attackers into Dragonites and Gyarados are both glass canons, which some steer clear of due to the necessity of making every dodge. One missed dodge on charge attack means end of battle in most every case. Both Gyarados and Dragonite hit hard with DT and can delay an attacker if they want to make all dodges to save potions.
Vaporeon is still a weak defender in my opinion. It lasts a little longer than typical defender but also hits like a wet noodle with WG. It's a worse version of a Snorlax with Lick. No one struggles to take a Vaporeon down in time so it's only strength is the quick HP you have to dodge.
It's a bulky attacker that deals relaible damage but at the same time just a high CP mon slapped onto gyms.
Time is not everything though, especially when the difference is so little - you've got to take the "Power" metric (the Y axis in the Big 7 guide graphics) into consideration as well.
From that you can see that a Vaporeon can beat almost 3 Rhydon of the same level, and a Venusaur can beat almost 4 Vaporeon of the same level. That's considerably worse than Gyarados or Dragonite...
It's not really a shocking revelation that it's Blissey, Snorlax, then the rest. If CP isn't a factor, there are better defenders Rhydon and Vaporeon.
Okay, so some of the other defenders can be beaten 10 seconds quicker, but I find that hardly significant enough to create a different tier for them. Besides, you simply ignore one of the quickest Vaporeon/Rhydon killers, Victreebel, because "who would level one up?" Um, maybe to take out Rhydons and Vaporeons? I could ask the same thing about Jynx, who would power one up? I have 814 Jynx candies and have never powered one up...why? Because I got hit by a couple to steel wings and realized Jynx is a bad idea against Dragonite, especially with the presence of LAPRAS.
I have an army of 1200 cp Tangelas that roll through gyms of Rhydons and Vaporeons. When a pokemon of that cp rolls through multiple pokemon, I question them as a defender.
Let's be honest, it comes down to effective hps, combined with weaknesses, or lack there of. Blissey, Snorlax, and Vaporeon and the only ones out of the "Big 7" that don't have a double weakness, which is why they take so much longer to KO. But out of those 3, Vaporeon is going to inflict the least amount of damage, because the attacker generally resists them, as opposed to Snorlax and Blissey, who can hit Machamp for SE damage.
When it comes to damage, Rhydon does pretty significant damage, and his slightly better survive-abilty than the others in his tier puts him up with them, and a slightly better option than Vaporeon IMO.
After Blissey and Snorlax I'd probably rank the next five:
- Tyranitar
- Dragonite
- Rhydon
- Vaporeon
- Gyarados
You make good points about Rhydon and Vaporeon taking the longest to KO, but that is not enough for me to elevate them above Tyranitar and Dragonite. Tyranitar and Dragonite both have fairly hard-hitting defensive moves, and their elite max CPs are invaluable for gym slotting/placement. Rhydon vs. Vaporeon vs. Gyarados is a tough debate, but I think they all belong in the same defender tier. I bet Vaporeon fell a half tier to the other two in GP's rankings due to its max CP being below Blissey's and WG being such a weak defensive move. To me, WG's weakness is overcome by the annoyance of how long Vape takes to KO, and I rarely see a Blissey who would slot above my best Vaporeon in a gym.
I don't agree with the placement of Dragonite. I think of him like a Gyarados that hits a little harder. There are so many mon that tear through Dragonite that everyone has an army of at least one of them (Lapras, Piloswine, Jinx, Cloyster, even Dewgong). Tyranatar at least has counters that are difficult to obtain, currently.
You say "tear him apart" but only Snorlax and Blissey will leave their optimal counters with less health if you choose a mon that doesn't take an extremly long time. Dragonite gets maligned (justifiably) as a defender but the fact is the other options just aren't better and they all have some exploitable weakness....just most of them have a greater one than Dragonite.
If stronger ice mons become more available that will change.
Personally, I'd put Rhydon at the bottom of the "next five" (the five after Blissey & Snorlax). If Rhydon takes a few extra seconds to defeat, that is offset by (1) the fact that it has double weakness to very common grass & water types, and (2) its predictable one-bar charge moves are all easy to dodge. There are no nasty surprises when attacking into Rhydon.
In my city there are a lot of pokestops, so potions and revives are not really a problem.
But TIME is, so I'm with you, I also consider Vape and Rhydon above the other because of the extra 5-10 seconds that add up for a lvl 10 gym.
Regarding power ratio:
1. I seldom beat more than 2 vapes with my vw/SoB lvl 32 Venu. Db/Dc takes 3, but since he gets much more use, when Vapes in gym Venu comes into play :).
2. I always beat 2 (and only 2) Rhydons with my HP Vape.
3. I usually beat 3 Gya with a Discharge Jolt. If DT, drop to 2 and some of the 3rd :).
4. With my lvl 32 Lapras I beat 2 or 3 Dragonites (agian, depends on move set). If less in gym, FB/A Cloyster is faster. I don't have a good Jynx :). I keep forgeting to scroll down till my Ice Piloswines :).
5. Tyra is a joke on defence, both for Machamp (3.4k CP Tyra did not had time to fire his charge move) or Vape. I usually beat them with leftovers Vape or Machamp from previous fights (old KC/CC dodges really well vs Tyra).
So again, for Vape and Rhydons I "spent" more attack positions
