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Best Attacker against ZH/DG Blissey

Hi, Community!
I've just run some simulations on pokebattler.com to find out who is the best attacker against a ZH/DG Blissey. Before I present my results, let me make some introductions:

[INRODUCTION]

Battle result measurement
Two variables are used to measure a specific matchup:
*Time_to_win: The time it takes for the attacker to beat the defender. Note that in some cases the attacker faints before he can take out the defender. In such cases, the sim continues as if the attacker had unlimited HP.
*KD ratio: How many times can the attacker takes out the defender before he faints. Attacker basket
In this research, I only considered the following candidates:
Dragonite (DB/DC, DT/O)
Tyranitar (B/SE, B/Cr)
Machamp (C/DP, C/CC)
Exeggutor (Ex/SoB, C/SoB)
Vaporeon (WG/HP)
Alakazam (P/FS)
Espeon (C/FS)
Flareon (FS/O) Attacking Strategy
I consider three common attacking strategies: No Dodging, Dodge Specials PRO and Dodge All PRO. High-Even-Low
For each attacker and for each attacking strategy, I run 3 matchups, named "High", "Even" and "Low" respectively. In "High", the level of the attacker is 40 and the level of the defender is 30; in "Low", it's 30 for the attacker and 40 for the defender; and in "Even", both are level 40. In all matchups, both attacker and defender have perfect IVs. Then I took the average for *Time_to_win and *KD out of the three to give the final result.

[SIMULATION RESULTS]
{Original data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15h9CkkKH27MGN7BV_2103RbvqiVthd7x4sbKoQnyjOk/edit?usp=sharing}

All right, now here are the results:

{Edit: I made an info graph, please see the graph below or click the above link for result.
Notes on the info graph:
1. ND - No Dodging, DSp - Dodge Specials PRO, DALL - Dodge All PRO
2. X-axis is (100 - time_to_win), Y-axis is KD, both are the higher the better
}

[CONCLUSION]
1. There are four best attackers to deal with Blissey:
Dragonite, Tyranitar, Machamp, and Vaporeon (note that Vape cannot afford to dodge all since he'll time out).

Generally (in No dodging and Dodge Specials PRO),
Time: Machamp > Dragonite > Tyranitar > Vaporeon
KD: Machamp < Dragonite < Tyranitar < Vaporeon

In Dodge ALL PRO, however, Machamp really shines. He wins on both KD and Time.

Aside from the above four, I would recommend Eggy and Flareon. Be careful with Alakazam and Espeon, the two Psychic glass cannon. They are too fragile for the job.

Thanks for reading. Any discussion is welcomed.

Asked by bioweapon8 years 2 months ago

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Answers

Very nice...thanks.

FB Alakazam...he is under rated into Blissey
I am not saying he is the be all and end all, but he rips a LOT of hp off very quickly as a suicide attacker.

Yes, that part is right. He could be as fast as DT/O

The lists are alphabetically sorted. The conclusion drawn was that Alakazam is too fragile for the job.

That is why the word 'suicide' was used...also the move I mention is not even mentioned in this particular list.

I do see the list, I do understand the list...and the person that made the list did acknowledge the point I was trying to make.

...but thanks for incorrecting me.

It doesn't count the doge bug, Alakazam will faint due to the bug.

I would take this into account for all matchup with less than 130% Kill/Death-Ratio. Blissey does not hit super hard, so dodging bug it is not as prevalent as in a flareon-gyarados-matchup, but -yes - it cannot be ignored.

Bruno, by this measure DB/DC Dragonites and Flareons are borderline on "Dodge All PRO", and Machamp fails. Pretty sure you'll be quite unpopular taking this stand!

[But actually I agree with you, I tend not to like flaky attackers who cannot, at the minimum, beat Blissey 1 for 1. But I suspect you and me are in the minority, judging by the number of people who support X/Solar Eggs, Flareons and others who call sacrificing 2-for-1 vs Blissey "successful"].

In "Dodge All Pro" Machamp is king :), he can take 2 Blissyes, is the only one on this simulation that goes over 200 KD :).
I'm sure you wanted to put "Dodge Specials Pro" :).
But Machamp is ok also in that scenario, I don't get the bug with a lvl 32 C/CC and just today I repeatedly beat a 2.8k Blissey (ZH/HB, no DG)

I'd like to see the results for the "Even" and "Low" matchup sims separately instead of them being averaged out. Reason being that it is hardly the case where attackers are leveled up to 40 and meet defenders at level 30. In my view the other way around is more common, ie, high level defenders and level 30 attackers.

Thanks for the feedback!
I've added the link to the original data in the post. It's also here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15h9CkkKH27MGN7BV_2103RbvqiVthd7x4sbKoQnyjOk/edit?usp=sharing).

This is great data, thanks!

Couple things I would nitpick on though:

On the initial attackers list, you listed Dragonite (DT/H) instead of what I would assume should have been Dragonite (DT/O). Which got me puzzled tbh (until I read the rest of the post).
As mentioned above, showing separate results for High, Even and Low would give some insight on how to power up Pokemons, so it would be super nice to have all these infos. How about a spreadsheet containing all the data? I wouldn't mind doing it if you don't know how / want to.
Any chance you could add Confusion / Solar Beam Eggy to the list? I know it is a legacy moveset and that the difference to Ex/SoB is negligible, but still, I would be interested in seeing how negligible it is.
For Alakazam, how about Confusion / Future Sight? Mathematically, it has higher DPS than Psycho Cut, but how would it compare with the difference scenarios?

Thanks for your feedback!
1. I've corrected it.
2. I've added the link to all the original result in the post. For your convenience, it's here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15h9CkkKH27MGN7BV_2103RbvqiVthd7x4sbKoQnyjOk/edit?usp=sharing).
3. I'm working on it.
4. It should be similar to C/FS Espeon but with a little lower KD, so I didn't consider that.

Well, again, thanks, really great work!

For Alakazam...Confusion/Focus Blast is even better again into something that has a weakness to fighting moves as Blissey (and Snorlax) do.
It has a higher damage, and the effectiveness into 'normal' offsets the lack of STAB.

I have a 100% Hex/FB Gengar at lvl 20; I'm contemplating powering him up for for quick Snorlax/Blissey fun. But not yet decided (only because is 100%, I have the better legacy moves already on some other high level ones).
Would someone reading here did that or would do it if the case?

The problem is that he takes 1.25 damage from psychic moves, although he will resist DG.

The reason I prefer Alakazam is that he resists psychic moves, so that covers ZH and makes him even better against ZH/Psychic Blissey.

Gengar would take extra damage from Z/Psychic so personally that would put me off...but he is 100% in your case.

Against any Pound Blissey, and any charge move other than Psychic he would do well - against a Pound/DG Blissey, he would be very nice indeed.
Only you can tell if those specific scenarios are worth the investment.

The main point to consider is that he is still a glass cannon, and will be more of a 'suicide dps'er' - so you would need to decide if that is something you want to invest in.

I personally would probably do it because he is a 100% mon, and a lot of fun to use.

Thanks.
Yes, 100% IV and fun; when I say fun I mean I expect to die quick during battle, but with a significant part of the adversary after each hit of Gengar :). Maybe even able to beat a non BS Snorlax :)

Oh yeah...I would expect him to rip through a Snorlax (but I say that without running any simulations)

Im thinking Scizor. Resist all of Blisseys moves. You have data?

I'll list his data here (I'm working on an info graph, too many data in the post):
Scizor (F/X) No Dodging 75.3 46.90%
Scizor (F/X) Dodge Specials PRO 78.2 122.80%
Scizor (F/X) Dodge All PRO 84.4 174.60%

Scizor is OK but not strong when dealing with Blissey.
And in case you wonder, other Scizors (BP/IH, BP/X, F/BP) performs similarly.

Cool info! I would be curious to see Machamp with C/CC and also Dragonite with DT/O

Actually, it is Dragonite with DT/O, not DT/H (there was a mistake in the beginning). In case you wonder, DT/H performs a little worse than DT/O.

Seams like you want to conduct an extended analysis, on other defenders too.
Would you mind to add also a C/CC Machamp? I think many of us will use that combo since Machop is not that common and I preferred to power up that one instead of rolling the dice on a new evolution.
P.S. in case is not clear, I really appreciate your initiative.
And thanks for confirming Vape's place as Best backup :D (for a backup speed is of lower importance, you want the fucking job done where other failed).

Yes, Vape is actually good (to my surprise).
Working on a C/CC Machamp (and Heracross). My prediction is that it'll be a little worse than a C/DP one but still much better than most others.

I knew Vape is OK, I'm using it as backup or even lead all the time with Blisseys. But I did not expect to be the best in terms of KD (I do Dodge Specials Pro most of the battles, I consider a good balance between speed and efficiency, so that is my go to metric for the moment).
About C/CC I'm curios, he vs. Blisseys is one of the few cases when I try my best with Dodge all Pro.

Vape just has so much Bulk (#3, the top 2 being Snorlax and Blissey), the decent Hydro Pump as Charge move.
BTW, feel free to check the info graph I just posted.

You already added CC Machamp, thanks :).

You really should have added Gary with DT + Hydropump.

Gary outpreforms Alk in this match up.

There is also a big flaw in your analysis.
You went Apples to Apples, like "No Dodging" vs "No Dodging"

That's not the way to do it. You need to check "No Dodging" for the Pokemon who have the Bulk to survive that strategy vs "Dodge Specials Pro" for the Pokemon who don't vs "Dodge All Pro" for the Pokemon who need that.

If you are trying to measure Speed, you actually want Pokemon to win with low hps. Preferribly as close to zero as possible. Remember Damage Taken = Energy Generated = More DPS & Quicker Wins.

This is a big part of the Reason Gary deserves to be on Tier 2.5 With Alk.

Regarding your second point, I just made an info graph to summarize all matchups in one chart, which should give a clearer picture.

That's better.

The problem is inherent in the premise that what the attacker cares most about is "Quickest Win"

There are times vs Blissey I've purposefully not dodged a Hyperbeam. Did it because I knew I had the HPs to survive it, and was in a hurry, and wanted to fill my charge bar faster.

Blissey with its relatively low attack and huge bulk that I have ever purposefully ate a Charge Attack on.

Your points do have reason.
You can copy his spreadsheet and add your results with Gary. Also with current info we can compare on our own Vapes Dodge Specials info with Espeon Dodge All for example.

Another thing, I wouldn't overly complicated this chart with KD.

It's a needless extra division, because you aren't going to attack the same exact pokemon twice.

A better axis would just be % Health Left.

From 0 to 100. (under zero is a loss)
(over 50 would be what you call a KD ratio of 2+)

Percentage Health also gives a second way of comparing the Pokemon. IE: Potion Usage.
I know 50% on Alk is 1 super, but not 50% on Gary.

I'll take that into consideration before making next analysis.
Though, there's a direct relation between KD and %HP Left: [KD] = 1 / (1 - [%HP Left]), or [%HP Left] = 1 - 1 / [KD]. I could give two charts for each.

I totally understand what KD is.

I just believe your average person reading your chart would understand it better if you left it as %hps left.

As you said though you could label the Axis Both Ways.

Or even in parenthesis. KD 2 (50% hps remaining)

I totally understand what KD is.

I just believe your average person reading your chart would understand it better if you left it as %hps left.

As you said though you could label the Axis Both Ways.

Or even in parenthesis. KD 2 (50% hps remaining)

What does KD stand for? Does that represent how much HP the attacker has left at the end of battle?

Actually not. I'll give an example. KD = 2 means that this attacker is able to take down 2 enemies before himself faints. It also means that after taking one enemy, he will have 50% HP left.
In general, [KD] = 1 / (1 - [%HP Left])