GamePress

How reliable/useful are pogomoves.com Gym Offense Ranking?

This site ranks 994 species/moveset combinations of attackers against specific defenders. Some results are really unexpected:

Against Snorlax and Blissey, Vaporeon with WG/HP is ranked 182nd? http://pogomoves.com/rankings/gym-offense.php?defender=242 http://pogomoves.com/rankings/gym-offense.php?defender=143 Against Dragonite, Lapras with FB/Blizz is ranked 39th while 5 Dragonite movesets make the top 10?
http://pogomoves.com/rankings/gym-offense.php?defender=149 Gengar with SC/SB is ranked 3rd against Vaporeon and 1st against Exeggutor?
http://pogomoves.com/rankings/gym-offense.php?defender=134
http://pogomoves.com/rankings/gym-offense.php?defender=103 Against Lapras, Omastar with RT/RS is ranked 32nd and Poliwrath with RS/DP is ranked 122nd, while Exeggutor with Conf/Solar is ranked 2nd and Dragonite with DT/OR is ranked 10th?
http://pogomoves.com/rankings/gym-offense.php?defender=131

Are these rankings reliable/useful? If so, what am I missing? If not, any better similar rankings to recommend?

Asked by hkn8 years 2 months ago
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Answers

by razvan 8 years 2 months ago

I don't like that site, I think they account only for DPS, which can be usefull just in 1 on 1 situations and consider short battle as supreme metric.

Better alternatives:
1. This own site :): https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/gym-attackers-tier-list - read the commets for each mon, very helpfull
https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/gym-defenders-tier-list
2. pokebattler varios tops you can create on your own:
https://www.pokebattler.com/rankings/attackers/levels/40/defenders/levels/40/strategies/DODGE_ALL/DEFENSE?view=SINGLE
or for more details see those from pokedex, here is for blissey: https://www.pokebattler.com/rankings/attackers/levels/40/defenders/levels/40/strategies/DODGE_ALL/DEFENSE?view=SINGLE (see the Best Counters area)
3. goptimiz.fr/en - here is Caounters for Blissey: http://goptimiz.fr/en/pokemons/blissey#counters

Pakebattler let's you customize your top most, you can see the top based on power, time to win or Overall, which is a combination of the two above (don't know with what percentages).

Tl;DR Gamepress tier lists and Pokebattler.com. Play with pokebattler, offers a lot, once more, a lot, of valuable info (to the details like what level should be your mon so that he deals max damage to a high level defender - i.e. Machamp has to be lvl 32 for Counter to deal 10 vs. a lvl 35 Blissey, otherwise will deal at most 9)

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Btw, pogomoves is based on a spreadsheet, useful one but wuite limited compared to pokebattler, goptimiz and Gamepress analysis.
And their interpretation of that spreadsheet is limited, as I said they consider only how fast a duel is, they don't account for HP% left for example.
ONe possible source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lyv07reQ9_0hy548BVvjo7vVnJ_VWPU_oNcwPcj8izo/edit#gid=479224904
If in Rults you sort by DPS you will find the list from their offence rankings: http://pogomoves.com/rankings/gym-offense.php
And for a pokemon counter they just added SE where the case and resorted :).
No dodge strategy, no consideration for HP left (so you can battles 2-3 mons with an attacker), no consideration for battles ending before a DPS cycle is done, again just pure cycle DPS. Good for players in their first weeks of play, unusable after they gain medium knowledge.

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These are raw DPS numbers. If you want the absolute quickest way to mow down a defender and have an abundance of potions, their list is the most accurate one.

To your queries:

1.
Vaporeon is very weak for raw DPS numbers. It is a tank, but is slow on the attack. Attack stat of 205 is on the lower side of top pokemon. Water gun/hydro pump is a good moveset but it is not nearly as damaging as some others like Fire spin/overheat flareon (not to mention the monster attack stat the flareon has). Not saying Flareon>Vaporeon overall, but Flareon (and many others)>Vaporeon for attacking speed definitely.

2.
Dragonite is the better counter against dragonite anyway, lapras doesn't even come close to dishing out enough DPS to make the top list. Cloyster, Pilswine, Jynx etc. are all stronger than lapras.

  1. Gengar is the highest DPS attacker in the game (but is very fragile!!). I'm not surprised if it performs well against a neutral matchup (vaporeon), or does the best in an super effective matchup (exeggutor). Gengar does get taken out in 15 seconds though (unlike dragonite), but it also inflicts heavy damage to the opponent.
  2. A solar beam fired from an attacking exeggutor can nuke almost any pokemon. With lapras being weak to it, I'm not surprised at all.

That said, I use that list because I have an abundance of potions and gym turnovers are high (almost never goes beyond level 4 here). Hence I can solve everything quickly with my trio of gengars + 2 dragonites in reserve. I also pick up way too many potions to use.

If you are in a low pokestop density place with stable gym scenes, I'd not recommend using that site as a definitive guide.

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I've noticed that you put a pogomove link some days ago and I was puzzled since I did not expected a knowledgeable player to share that site.
Yes, it does what you say, cycle DPS, wuickest way to defeat ONE mon, but do you want a new player to invest stardust on Starmie since he is the first Water attacker pokemon in their ranks?

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Again, I say this is purely down to the objective of the player. For me, my gym battles never last more than 4 rounds due to the high turnover. Hence, picking 6 attackers is easy for me, I just choose the highest DPS guys on my team with minimal consideration of typing.

It may be different for other players of course, but I was just pointing out what the OP's confusion with this site is.

And yes, Starmie is a better water attacker than Vaporeon if you want to save time and do not need to tackle multiple Rhydon. For some, this scenario fits exactly that (though I must confess I use a vaporeon to attack rather than Starmie to attack Rhydon). Then comes the question of Stardust which you pointed out which is a valid concern- I expect those who use these sites to exercise their own judgement for dust expense, and only use a Starmie should it evolve to WG/HP at Level 30.

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I understood you from the second time (I replied before reading your full comment, just based on first paragraph :( ) and I see your valid point based on your pogo environment.
But:
1. I think (I might well be wrong) that your case is a lot less frequent then cases with lvl 8-10 gyms to attack; I of course base this on my own experience and on what I get from this forum (but might be confirmation bias from my part).
2. I would not count on "I expect those who use these sites to exercise their own judgement for dust expense, and only use a Starmie should it evolve to WG/HP at Level 30." :). If so a lot of questions will not be asked here. Not the case with OP from this thread, he obviously observed some inadequacies to his own experience/knowledge.
3. I've noticed that pogomoves explain their rankings on their first page but again my experience tells me 90% (99% even? :) ) will not read that, will go straight to the rankings.
And with the abundance of rankings and advanced knowledge available at this time I find pogomoves ones to basics.
Your fellow french trainer that runs goptimiz.fr deserves in my opinion more attention than pogomoves.

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by Arak2 8 years 2 months ago

Looked at Alk and Gary vs Blissey.

The fact that Alk is #9, and Gary is #103 tells me the list is garbage.

When you play with this combo on Pokebattler.
Gary is actually FASTER than Alk (who can't even win vs 1 of the 6 blissey movesets)

The issue being they don't account for Damage Recieved based energy in thier list. So pokemon who don't have to dodge Quick Attacks and can soak them and use that energy, are actually higher dps than pokemon who do have to dodge quick attacks.

(Part of my ever present Gary > Alk campaign for this site!)

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This is extremely important and I forgot to mention in my reply: "The issue being they don't account for Damage Recieved based energy in thier list. "

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It is reliable data.

On top of “Gym Offense” you should look at the ranking “Dueling Ability”.

Gym offense ranking: which Pokemon will damage the fastest? (If you want to win fast and do not care about the number of revive needed).

Dueling ability ranking: which Pokemon will do the most damage before fainting? (If you want to be revive efficient and do not care about the time it takes you to destroy a gym). This corresponds more to the GP approach.

I personally use a combination of both lists to identify the best pokemon for a situation. For example, the best Blissey slayer is Dragonite in my opinion. It is only 8th for dueling ability and only 5th for gym offense, but on average of both lists he is first.

  1. Against Snorlax and Blissey, Vaporeon with WG/HP is ranked 182nd?
    Indeed, Vaporeon is quite slow. it is number 17 for dueling ability.
  2. Against Dragonite, Lapras with FB/Blizz is ranked 39th while 5 Dragonite movesets make the top 10?
    Dragonite is clearly the best and in particular the fastest. Lapras is ranked 7 (only after blissey and the best dragonite) for dueling ability.
  3. Gengar with SC/SB is ranked 3rd against Vaporeon and 1st against Exeggutor?
    Gengar is the fastest but fall at position 134 for dueling ability.
  4. Against Lapras, Omastar with RT/RS is ranked 32nd and Poliwrath with RS/DP is ranked 122nd, while Exeggutor with Conf/Solar is ranked 2nd and Dragonite with DT/OR is ranked 10th?
    Omaster and Poliwrath are very slow.
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  1. Against Snorlax and Blissey, Vaporeon with WG/HP is ranked 182nd?
    Indeed, Vaporeon is quite slow. it is number 17 for dueling ability.

Blisse is first in duel abillity. It is my understanding that a Blissey will time out vs another Blissey (don't have a pund/hb one to test myself). So the data is not reliable at all.
See this here, no dodging at all, p/hb vs p/hb, both lvl 36: https://www.pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/BLISSEY/quickMoves/POUND_FAST/cinMoves/HYPER_BEAM/levels/36/ivs/FFF/defenders/BLISSEY/quickMoves/POUND_FAST/cinMoves/HYPER_BEAM/levels/36/ivs/FFF/strategies/CINEMATIC_ATTACK_WHEN_POSSIBLE/DEFENSE - time out

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correct, Blissey would time out. but that does not mean that the data are not reliable. Duel ability is only about doing the most damage before fainting. Since Blissey has so much tankiness, one should also look at the gym offense (and not just dual ability).

To decide the best attacker you need to check the dual ability, the gym offense, the doding pattern (can you do one, two or three quick attacks between dodge moves), the energy use cycle (are you ending the fight with an overkill charge move?)...

I am quite satisfied with averaging the dual ability and the gym offense.

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Your post reminded me of world of Warcraft. There were some geared guys with high lvl items which "can" do more DPS on paper but will they last long enough to make it worth?Defender will attack back and you have to count that too. Strategies my man strategies...

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pogomoves is accurate in term of dps and if you don't consider dodging (e.g some moves like dragon breath, water gun, bite, etc are very good for dodging and it affects survivability), damage received, and type-disadvantage received by the attacking mon. An example is one of the points you mentioned: dragonite is better than lapras when attacking dragonite. This makes sense if you only consider dps since dragonite has way higher atk stats than lapras. But they didn't consider the tankiness and the fact that the defending dragonite might have dragon-type moves e.g. dragon tail + outrage which also deals super-eff damage against attacking dragonite. I would say they lack deeper analysis unlike gym attackers tier list by gamepress or gym attackers tier list by ryanoftheday from thesilphroad on reddit. But you can refer to pogomoves if you are looking for the best movesets of a certain pokemon species in terms of dps.

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