GamePress

In case you missed it, a look at the tier list.

Preface, this is a comment by Dondon 151 deep into a tier list complaint thread, before posting another learn to read. I may, if time at work provides, go through and compile the shorter responses that are relevant as well, as Dondon has been kind enough to take the time to respond to some of the legit questions and some total nonsense that has come from the latest tier list. Please keep in mind that a gym rework is coming making this tier list work that won't last all that long for under appreciated work.

Hi, tier list creator here.

If this list is so horrible to you, then you're welcome to ignore its suggestions. I think it is fine to question our tier lists because we have to account for all playstyles and every player should make conclusions for themselves. Your complaints deserve an explanation, so here is an explanation.

What has become clear to me is that Gyarados is very very overrated by most players as an attacker. You can cite DPS, EPS, attack stat, etc. all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Vaporeon wins its ideal matchups faster than Gyarados. Vaporeon beats Rhydon and Tyranitar faster and with substantially more % HP remaining.

As a Dragonite "counter," Gyarados is also deficient. First, Gyarados doesn't win this matchup without dodging. Very few Pokemon win this matchup without dodging, and Lapras is one of them. This makes Lapras an optimal attacker into Dragonite. Second, Gyarados is worse than Cloyster or Jynx at attacking into Dragonite. With dodging, the ice-types win this matchup faster with similar % HP remaining. Third, a better option to attack defender Dragonite with is your own Dragonite. You win something like 6 seconds faster and take slightly less % HP damage.

So this completes the picture of Gyarados being an extremely overrated attacker. It has no matchups in which it is even close to being ideal, and as a generalist, it's much worse than either Dragonite or Tyranitar.

This also addresses your qualms with Lapras, who is in tier 2 almost strictly because of the Dragonite matchup, and Vaporeon, who is ranked above Snorlax because of having ideal matchups. Snorlax isn't really good against anything; it's a good option if you can't dodge or if your phone/game won't let you.

Now regarding Flareon and Charizard vs. Arcanine. Arcanine is substantially worse than either of the tier 2 fire types now that they have access to Fire Spin and Overheat. In the Exeggutor matchup, Arcanine wins over 3 seconds slower than Charizard and takes a lot more % HP damage. Flareon and Charizard performed similarly (Flareon slightly faster, Charizard slightly bulkier), but they both left Arcanine in the dust.

By the way, some people (more casual players) choose to use Flareon as a poverty attacker into Blissey because they have no better option. Flareon beats Blissey almost 10 seconds faster than Arcanine if both dodge specials.

Asked by newton8 years 1 month ago

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Answers

First I agree Vaporeon is better than gyarados. i think we all can agree on that, don't even need to point anything here.

On your first Gyarados points, you focused on explaining why he isn't good for any specific matchup. I agree he is not. But as a genralist:

You say Dragonite or Tyra are better. Of course they are but see their rank on your list Dragonite is tier 1 and Tyra 1.5. Gyara is placed rank 3. The distance between them is not that high. As a generalist Gyara is preety good snce he is only weak to electric (very) and rock (little). Did you see any electric guy defending at any time or even rock (a bit more cummon but not cummon at all) around?. If you focus on gyara weakness and strongnest you can see he is perfect for attacking anything. With decent HP, high attack, nice move set and no vulnaribilities, it deserve rank 2 or at least 2.5 in my opinion. Why?

All on rank 2.5 have low hp and good attack. They are good with dodging. But isn't Gyara better in any case? Any of those would perform worst than Gyara while attacking a gym with dodging, dying faster. And I don't see any matchup on them except grass on flareon/Charizard that isn't cummon at all except exeguttor. Not to mention the psiquics or Gengar. Also depending on the Gyara move set he could be good for Dragonite (dragon moves) or Rhydon (Hydro pump) or even with crucnh (psiquics and exegutor). SO maybe he is not an specialist but performs good too against most cummon defenders. Not to mention how resitent he is to Vaporeons.

Don't know you but myself can't think charizard or flareon are better than gyarados for anything except fighting grass types and even there maybe gyarados would finish faster. Same goes for the others on tier 2.5. It's like a joke they are better and i was never a Gyarados fan just saying my toughts.

I think you focused this list too much on the machups, placing them high (as you admited with Lapras), leaving the others on the very buttom of the list.

But the reality is that nowdays with the gyms crowded with dragonites, vaporeons, rhydons, Tyranytars and gyarados this list doesn't reflect that good what are the best choices for everything Maybe I could agree on tier 1-2 but the rest... doesn't suit the reality in my opinion, with all respect for you and your list.

Regards,

I forgot to add that at the end the list if Pokemons is so high so making a list like that it's preety difficult or near impossible without following certain criteria. So as far as it's explained it's fine. Every players would make different lists based on who know how many factors so at the end it's very sujective all of that.

"You say Dragonite or Tyra are better. Of course they are but see their rank on your list Dragonite is tier 1 and Tyra 1.5. Gyara is placed rank 3. The distance between them is not that high."

Gyarados's DPS as a double-dragon attacker is 72% of Dragonite's DPS.

If you evolved a Pokemon and rolled a moveset that had only 72% the DPS of the optimal moveset, you would consider that a failure and start gathering candy to try again.

"All on rank 2.5 have low hp and good attack. They are good with dodging. But isn't Gyara better in any case? Any of those would perform worst than Gyara while attacking a gym with dodging, dying faster."

No. Let's take a matchup vs. Vaporeon in this case, which is generous to Gyarados because Gyarados resists water.

Gengar wins this matchup 6 s faster dodging only specials compared to Gyarados who dodges nothing.

Dodge nothing is the fastest attack strategy because you don't waste time in the dodging animation and the extra damage that you take helps to build energy.

If Gyarados decides to dodge specials, it ends the battle with a lot more HP but is now 9.6 s slower than Gengar.

"As a Dragonite "counter," Gyarados is also deficient. First, Gyarados doesn't win this matchup without dodging. Very few Pokemon win this matchup without dodging, and Lapras is one of them. This makes Lapras an optimal attacker into Dragonite."

Hold on, you're saying that Lapras can take a Dragonite Hurricane, Hyper Beam, or even dragon pulse, without dodging? I didn't think so.

It can. Gyarados definitely cannot. Gyarados is a good dragonite killer but Lapras is the best overall.

I've killed a Dragonite with my Lapras with just spamming Frost Breath and Ice Beam, without any dodging. The Dragonite even had a lot more CP than my Lapras too.

I killed TWO Dragonites yesterday with a DT/O Gyarados, without healing in between, and I only dodged one dragon pulse. I do not dodge quick moves. The first D'nite had hyper beam, which he never had a chance to launch, and the second had dragon pulse, which he was able to launch once (and which I dodged).

My Gyarados was CP 3040, and the Dragonites were slightly lower (CP ~2800 and 2900), so the Dragonites were admittedly lower level, but my Gyarados still had more than half its HP after the first one, without any dodging.

Lvl 35.5 gya vs lvl 27-28 Dragonite is not relevant.
30-30 or more like 30-35 should be compared.

It seems to me that the author has created a consistent list of the best attacking pokemons for total damage but then has inconsistently added some glass cannons as Tier 2.5.

I cannot find the explanation why Gengar or Alakazam are rated better than Jynx. I guess it is because of their optimal dodging patterns against their best match-ups. I do not have such data.

Jynx's DPS is not in the same league as Gengar or Alakazam.

Neither is Lapras's.

Questioner asked why Gengar and Alakazam are rated higher than Jynx; I answered that question. Your response is a non sequitur. Please stop wasting my time.

Thanks Dondon151 for your answer. The rational is simpler that what I had speculated. Please let me clarify my point.

It seems inconsistent to me that when considering “total damages”, the specialist attackers are rated better than the generalist attackers while when considering “DPS”, the specialist attackers are rated worse than the generalist attackers.

Example with total damages: Lapras and Heracross are worst generalist attacker than Rhydon and Gyarados. However, they have a better rating since they are better specialist attackers.

Example with DPS: Jynx is a worst generalist attacker than Gengar and Alakazam. However it is the fastest attacker against Dragonite and therefore a better specialist attacker. The generalists are rated better.

Rating the generalist better or worse than the specialist is an editorial choice. You get to choose the best attacker for each fight, so specialist can be considered better than generalist. Alternatively, generalists can be considered better since they are more versatile and offer flexibility when fighting multiple defenders.

It seems surprising that a different choice was made for “DPS” and “total damages”. Especially because specialist seems to be more relevant for glass canons than for tanks since the tanks are expected to attack multiple defenders.

GamePress,

Thanks for the offensive tier list.

I would like to understand the rationale behind the selection of moveset(s) to include on the tier list. For instance, for Tangela, was Vine Whip + Solar Beam omitted simply due to the lack of space in the tier list graphic? According to Tangela's Pokemon page, Vine Whip + Solar Beam is one of the three "A" Grade movesets, all of which have the exact same typing. As per the Grades Explanation page, movesets under the same grade are considered a tie. Is there a reason why one "A" Grade moveset made it to the tier list but not the other? Same thing for Snorlax with Lick + Body Slam, Gyarados with Bite + Hydro Pump, etc.

dondon151 had explained, in the past, about excluding Water Gun + Hypro Pump for Lapras, due to typing and utility in the metagame. That made sense. For the examples listed above, however, typing shouldn't be an issue. I am, therefore, asking this question.

Thanks again.

Maybe not the real reason, but taking a HP or even AT during Solar beam will be game over or close to it. The mentioned ones are a lot quicker so you have time to dodge the charge move.

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