I got my 2nd metal coat today (from a normal spin also, no specials from my streak spin) and am waiting for a lucky egg session to evolve, but like you I only have 1 decent scyther that I want to evolve (I'l feel free to then evolve my Onix if Scizor gets decent MS - otherwise will be a tough choice).
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I'm sure Niantic is fully aware of this LUCK aspect of the game. Getting the "ideal" Pokémon involves A LOT of trial and error. Players have to spend tremendous time and (for some) money in PoGO to get just a few great Pokemon.
By not introducing TMs, Niantic will continue to make more money until, one day, players go "fuck this shit" and stop playing (or stop caring about move sets). That is when they will finally put TMs in the game.
Just my guess / speculation.
If it were easy to get the "ideal" move set then everyone would have them and it would make the times you get an "ideal" move set less special.
I evolved 8 Poliwraths before getting one with bubble but the luck aspect is what makes the game exciting. If everyone could pick their moves there would be no reason to keep catching mons...
The only problem I see is that you didn't get what you want.
None of us are not entitled to the best moveset on all of the best IV mons we catch.
We are not entitled to ensure we have best in slot on all mons.
When people ask this they have not thought through the effect it will have on the game...only what they personally will get.
TM's will make a finite amount of any mon that you need to catch. If TM's are in game and too plentiful, then lists will appear of exactly how many of candies you need to collect and then you will be finished with a particular mon.
The point of the game is 'catch em all' - once you have enough candy to get exactly what you want, then the game will be 'collect all the TMs'.
...and if they are not plentiful enough people will complain.
Let's say there are TMs'...and I want a Venasaur in my collection.
Lets assume that we can't catch a good IV mon over lvl20 (which we know we can)...so we use a hatch.
My Venasaur will need 198 candy and 78k stardust for level 30
OR
248 Candy and 225k stardust for lvl40.
Basically, once I see a Bulbasaur nest, I will never need to ever catch another Bulbasaur again.
Every single mon will have a chart like this, and then you just add up how many you want, and collect candy.
Then the game is all about 'catch them TMS'
The core of this particular game of Pokemon is to get out and catch them - TMs will defeat the purpose of this completely.
Take it another step...then what?
We don't need Gen1 spawns because we have exaclty what we need forever - do we ask them to remove Gen1 spawns making it impossible for lower level or new players to ever complete their dex?
TMs are bad for this articular game....unless they are rarer than evolve items - and all that will do is make every complain that they are entitled to more TMs.
You know what TMs do ...right?
Picking on my use of TM as opposed to just 'changing movesets' in this discussion doesn't negate any of the points I made.
Alternatively, explain how you would expect to 'change movesets' just like in the original games without TMs.
All I see is an inability to counter anything I have said.
TMs grant a pokemon a specific desired ability. The chance to reroll moves is random. My desire is to spend another Metal Coat and the necessary candies required to evolve a scyther and reroll the moveset on my optimal pokemon. Otherwise I just evolve another scyther with less potential leaving my better Scizor useless forever until something changes.
So wrong.
Why the neccessity for an optimal moveset? How about a STRATEGIC MOVESET? For example if TMs existed it would be fun to have a Dragonite with Fire Blast (or Blizzard /Thunder) , a Rhydon with Surf or a Blissey with Ice Beam. Battles would be more surprising and neither moveset would be optimal. STRATEGY would be the most fundamental factor and not LUCK
If you think people would change the moves to something 'intersting' or 'startegic' as opposed to what is on some 'best of list' that someone else created then you are naive.
List are always around of what is 'best in slot' - and most people can't play until someone tells them what is good...and makes a video to show them.
No one will make 'interesting' or 'strategic' (see small niche) mons - the meta will be, get your highest IV and try for optimal movesets.
This thread...it is about someone that has a 91% mon and wants optimal moveset for it, and doesn't want to work for another one...this has nothing to do with 'strategy'
'Best of' would be the most fundamental factor and not STRATEGY
aSp,
First of all, I don't need neither lists nor videos to form opinions on what is good and bad
Secondly, the point is not to have 'a best of' moveset as you say for every pokemon, but a complete team of 6 pokemon which are strong together, have unpredictable attacks and cover each other weaknesses'. That's the vision of Pokemon ecosystem that Pokemon Go does not share
You may not need list or videos, and niether do I - but most players do. Look how many are refusing to do anything until someone else provides them a list of 'best of'.
As for a complete team of 6 - no one has 6 attackers that cover each other weakness.
We have a stable of attackers that are best at what they do, and we select which we will use for a given situation...we are not committed to only 6 and a need to make them a cohesive unit.
Yes, this is what makes it different from some other pokemon games out. So play this pokemon game the way it is...not try to play this pokemon game the way another pokemon game is.
There are many aspect that don't match other pokemon games - many items/mons are not limited in PoGo in the way they are in other games...but no one asks for this.
Hi aSp,
I enjoyed reading your well articulated comment, but I disagree with you on two minor details.
First, what players are or are not entitled to is not for you to decide, and is not really relevant in the discussion of TMs. By that ideology, one could say that players are not entitled to double dust events, spin streak rewards, first catch bonus, and so on. The fact is that, if a new game feature improves gameplay, it should be introduced. So arguments and debates should revolve around whether or not TMs will fuck the game up, instead of talking about "who deserves what" or "who isn't entitled to what".
We can agree to disagree on your point about TMs defeating the game's core purpose of "catching them all". If Niantic decides that a Solar Beam TM would cost, say, 100,000 dust or 200 Bulbasaur candies, then players would still go and catch more Pokemon. This may not be the best example, it wasn't well-thought out by me, but you get my point.
TMs are good for this game, as long as they are introduced to the game properly.
if we were 'entitled' then RNG would not be such a huge factor.
The game designer built in the 'not entitled factor' to the best of movesets.
However, the did build in an entitlement to dbl dust sometimes, spin streaks etc. The game tells us we are entitled to these if we do specific things in game.
Comparing being entitled to best moves, to being entitled to spin streaks is flawed in that the designers have made it so we ARE entitled to some of the things listed.
If they introduce something to change movesets, then we will be entitled to change...until then, no we are not.
We are entitled to all the other things you listed.
Your version of the cost of TMs just adds more to the finite number of candies/dust you need to collect to ensure best in slot for everything...it doesn't remove the problem I highlighted.
Truly, I want you to convince me that they will not be detrimental to the game - and you and I have had a great discussion about this over a long period.
...but I am not convinced that 'changing moveset' or 'TM' (what ever method) is healthy for this particular variation of a pokemon game.
aPs,
Regarding the hypothetical cost of TMs (mentioned above), would you agree that having a finite number of dust and candies is fine, as long as that finite number is large enough?
Players are greedy by nature. Once they have a perfect Venusaur, they will want another. They will also want a handful of perfect Dragonites, Snorlaxes, new Gen 2 Pokemon, Gen 3 Pokemon, and so on. Dedicated players would never stop trying to get good Pokemon, so they will have to keep acquiring candies and dust.
Further, Niantic's re-balancing updates will be sure to tweak the battle scene regularly (nerfs, new moves, etc). Players would then have to re-customize their Pokemon to be competitive again.
Essentially, if this keeps up, there really isn't a finite number attached to getting an ideal Pokemon. Players will always have to up their game if they want to improve their Pokemon. Players will have to catch them all, over and over again.
Nah, I can't agree that a finite number of candies for every player for every mon is a good thing...no matter how large the number is.
You already can have another shot at the prefered moveset for enough candy. Catch them and evolve them.
For the last 2 weeks (inc dbl candy) I had a Bulb nest nearby. I was evolving a Venasaur everyday in hope of VW/SoB - I am yet to get it, but I have a stable of Venasaur. If I could change movesets, then I would have been done with Bulbasaur forever since last week..and I would just need to change movesets.
If they rebalance, and the movesets change, then people will farm TMs (or how ever they let you change moves) rather than farm spawns and 'catch em all.
They make the changes to make old mons relevant again. This is where I talk about the need to have old mons spawning vs the wish of high level players to have all spawns to be new mons. We need old mons for lower or new players...so they need to keep them relevant for high level players. Improving movesets is the way they do this.
I haven't read the entire discussion. In my opinion, not knowing which move set you will get is the charme of the game.
That being said, when Niantic ordinary decides to change move sets they should at least inform us and give us the opportunity to change a move set if needed. A kind of compensation.
Explanation would decrease the frustration for many I feel. E.g. lapras nerf
I agree. TMs should be added to the game at the cost of candy or dust. Hell even a reroll at the cost of dust or candy...that will keep people from being "done" with a certain type of pokemon. I've been gaming all of my life and as a gamer i feel that wanting TMs or move rerolls isn't about wanting everything handed to us because we're "entitled." There are plenty of people looking for handouts, but we've gotten to the point in society where anytime anyone asks for anything they are being "entitled."
I digress though, It's about wanting to have your favorite pokemon and actually have fun using them. It's about not feeling gipped when your buddy evolves a perfect moveset gyarados and you end up with twister. This may sound crazy, but people around here in the valley in Virginia only have 1 gyarados right now. I've evolved one, powered it up, and have 150 candy towards my next one and I'm level 34. Using a Charizard with dragon claw sucks. Using a gyarados with twister sucks. If you are from the country like I am, then certain mons don't come around very often. They are a one or two time deal.
It's about feeling rewarded for hard work. Players need to feel rewarded for their hard work to keep playing. There is a reason that millions...literally MILLIONS of people have quit playing this game. Sure there are many of them that were never guna stick around, but even among my friends, who adore pokemon and have since they were little, they are quitting. I've hatched over 1400 eggs and I've hatched 3 dratini. I've only captured 5 others. I've walked hundreds of kilometers to farm the candy. So say i spend all that candy that it has taken me 8 months to get and it's not the dragonite I want...wanting to change it's moves is not being entitled...it's wanting the hard work to be worth the effort. Saying fuck it at least it's a dragonite and all dragonites are good is just settling. Sure you could repeat the process again and after 8 more months of work you would be able to roll the dice again, but it shouldn't take a fucking year and a half to get the dragonite you desire lol.
There is a fine line between handouts and rewarding effort. I may not be as hardcore as some, but I've played this game religiously since launch and I understand 100% where people are coming from. If you are a real gamer then you are probably frustrated, because no other game is this frustrating lol. You have to get the eggs (which is easy), walk the eggs (which takes some time), get LUCKY enough to hatch what you want, get LUCKY enough to have decent IVs, then get LUCKY with the moves when you evolve the mons..or you could just not care about the IVs or movesets, but I'm like: if you don't want the best mons then what is the point? The first line of the theme song is "I wana be the very best" lol. Yes it is a different concept than the gameboy games, however it is still pokemon and certain staples from the original game should be retained.
It was the nostalgia of the original 151 that brought people out in droves to play. This truly is a game of rolling dice and that is not a rewarding gaming experience. Sure it's awesome when the stars align, but that is rare. When the dust settles and as time keeps passing there will be a dedicated few still playing it, but at the end of the day a dedicated few will not be enough to keep the machine oiled and it will no longer be worth Niantic's while to continue putting effort into pokemon go and it will fade away completely. Personally I would love for them to implement TMs or move rerolls in a way that will improve the gaming experience without breaking the system completely and honestly it wouldn't be hard.
Good luck when you get your Dragonite.
I have only seen 4 dratini (1 escaped) and hatched 1. So far I am at 284kms walked, and 102 candys. So I should have my first DNite before too 400km point.
When completed, I WILL be rewarded with a D/Nite...my prime objective.
Sure, I want the best of the best moveset...but I know it is luck of the draw. I knew this when I started the first step as a buddy. But hey...it's a Dragonite and it will be more badad than most other mons.
Then I will decide if it is worth it to me to try again...or take advantage of any one of the other options to achieve the same thing a D/Nite will.
Dratini is very rare here, but I have many mons others have difficulty finding. I am sure you do too.
I can't roll multiple Dragonites for the best movesets, but I can do it with other mons, that many other players are limited in the number of times the can attempt 'perfection' for their mon of choice.
You are not limited in anyway by not having the optimal moveset, on a Dragonite.
And any Dragonite will get the job done.
I don't NEED a D/Nite with perfect moveset, and no one owes me one just because I will walk further to achieve than some who have multiple Nites.
There are literally no rare mons here in augusta county that people have trouble finding anywhere else and that is no an exaggeration and I didn't say I was limited by not having a perfect move set dragonite. I was really just using dragonite as an example.
Also I'm not saying anyone is OWED a good dragonite because they walked further, but I am saying that the work doesn't provide a satisfactory reward in the opinion of the majority of players, myself included, but I do continue to play, because I have hope they will implement some things that improve the quality of gameplay. All I have to go on is what fellow players say online, what I see in person, and the people I'm friends with. There is no doubt that people are leaving this game in droves and there is a reason for that. The random nature of the movesets combined with the difficulty in obtaining certain pokemon and now the recent shuffling of all of the moves is one of those reasons.. The continued absence of trading and trainer battles is another. Battling artificial intelligence and random casts of the dice are not enough to keep PoGo going. I want to see it flourish, because they have lightning in a bottle right now and the sky is the limit if they do it right.
I am happy that you find enjoyment in the current state of the game and I find your outlook on the game refreshing. It's nice to see a person just enjoying and accepting the game for what it is. I by no means want anything for free, but this model isn't sustainable. You will evolve a dragonite and then have to walk 600 kilometers more to even have the candy to power it up. If walking 1000 kilometers and expecting something more than a random number generator roll is entitlement then I guess I'm entitled.
I completely respect your opinion, but in the world of gaming this is not a sustainable recipe for success. Hard work is one thing. Hard work which results in the feeling of being duped is another and a lot of people are feeling duped right now.
No one NEEDS a dragonite, but everyone wants one and I understand that just because everyone wants one doesn't mean they deserve one, but if you put in over 500 kilometers then you have worked for it and you deserve the moves you want. Even if you then have to work for more candy or dust to change the moves.
I'm not going to try to argue my point any further though. We just don't exactly see eye to eye on this and maybe it's just a misunderstanding. I definitely respect what you are saying though. All dragonites ARE badass, but in a game where luck intersects effort more often than not, there will always be sour grapes among the player base.
My probleme isnt about getting bad movesets. Like my 100iv gyrados with bite and twister or my 98% dragonite with steel wing and hyperbeam. i dont mind to keep going, my problem is still acquring those special mons. I needed almost a year to get my first dragonite and it ended up with shit moves.. Even after patch. and im not living in a rural area. Compared to the states the spawns are a joke here. Only cheap mons like sentret, ratata, pidgey, swinub you will find here as mass... Europe is a giant money milk cow for niantic becouse you will only get good stuff with eggs.. i wouldnt mind to be able to change movesets..
