DB-DC Dragonite: still the best attacker?
I've seen the updated cycle DPS numbers, revealing that Dragon Tail movesets perform better in a straight up DPS race with Legacy DB movesets; however, when you take dodging into account (plus the new meta of buffed charge moves) I still think DB-DC performs the best over the course of multiple battles.
First off, the DPS isn't that much less. DT-Outrage is the highest DPS at 31+, followed by DT/H and DT/HB at around 30 DPS. Breath/Claw comes in around 27.5 I believe, which isn't terribly significant. Maybe a second or two difference in a battle.
Secondly, DB-DC can dodge everything. You can basically so your all out DPS spam cycle while dodging every attack. This is especially important against BS Snorlax or DG Blissey, where eating a charge attack could be fatal. Dragon Tail provides higher DPS, but it's a lot slower and you can have trouble against the aforementioned pokemon trying to do your full DPS and dodge charge moves.
The conclusion I've come to is this: DT Dragonite is better on defense, and has higher theoretical DPS in a flat-out race, but DB-DC is still going to get you the most wins via dodging and comparable DPS. I've had much better success against the top defenders (BS Snorlax and DG Blissey) with DB-DC than I have with DT-Outrage (or H / HB).
Comments? Thoughts?
edit: Tyranitar with Bite/SE is pretty darn good as well, you can dodge effectively and in a matchup with Blissey you keep more remaining HP than with Dragonite.
Answers
I'm aware of the theoretical cycle DPS of the different Dragonite movesets ... the question I am posing is real-world battle oriented. I'm talking about in a real battle where dodging is important, especially in the new meta with Blissey and the buff of BS Snorlax.
So, I guess the question is this:
If you are using a DT-Outrage Dragonite, how much DPS do you lose by slowing your DPS enough to dodge as effectively as with DB-DC? Are the movesets actually closer to one another than the DPS calculations show, due to energy waste / slowing DPS with DT-Outrage enough to dodge all attacks like you can with DB-DC?
This isn't a theoretical question.
I see the point you are getting at. At 1.1 s, you can probably get in 2-3 attacks per opponent attack. With DB you can probably get 4-6 attacks per opp atk. Plus if you dodge, you lose .5 seconds. There's also the question of efficiency, lag, dodge error, energy gained for HP lost, what happens if you miss the dodge, if you dodge twice, the opponents moveset. There's too many variables. So unless you have a specific scenario, everything is theoretical.
Pokebattler.com has the best stat rankings and battle calc imo.
AI dodging is 1.5-2.5 seconds plus moves like Confusion are 1.6 secs so 2.5+1.6=4.1. and DB is .5 secs perso theoretically you can get 8 DB's in max between successful dodges. If you read the Confusion animation correctly you can time this consistently. I can confirm i do 6-7 on confusion eggys all the time. Also on Rhydons I can get 5-6 WG's easily inbetween dodges (MS Cd+AI)=1.4+(1.5/2.5) = 2.9/3.9.
The trick is knowing how many water guns/DB you can put in after the animation starts. With Rhydons its 3 wg's.
Really its not a theorical question, its a real skills question.
Dragon Breath:
- 0.5 s cooldown;
- 8 EPS;
- True DPS 20.
Dragon Tail:
- 1.55s cooldown;
- 3.87 EPS;
- True DPS 16.13.
Dragon Claw:
- 1.7s cooldown;
- 33 EPU (3 bars);
- True DPS 48.82;
Outrage:
- 3.9s cooldown;
- 50 EPU (2 bars);
- True DPS 46.41.
For me is really clear that DB-DC is the best, you can spam DB a lot, use DC and dont miss a dodge, while with DT ur EPS is poor, is a slow attack and with OR you need a 3.9s cooldown, you cant dodge, its worse than Hyper Beam (Body Slam > Hyper Beam). I will never stop uping my DB-DC to start a DT hehe (even my DB-DP > DT-OR, DT is horrible). I am really sorry about who dont have a DB-DC Dragonite, thats a BEAST.
Gamepress updated the moves with yesterday's changes and i take the infos from here, so they only updated the old moves infos? DB is fixed to 6 dmg, 0.5s cd and DT still 15 dmg, 1.55s cd.
But lets take ur values of 1.1s and 8.18 EPS lets say you're attacking a mon who hit a quick attack every 2s by AI: you can spam 3 times DB, hit 18dmg and dodge in safe with an energy gain of 12 while you can use only one DT, hit 15dmg and dodge in safe with an energy gain of 8.18.
Now lets say you're attacking a mon who hit a quick attack every 3s by AI: you can spam 5 times DB, hit 30 and dodge in safe with an energy gain of 20 while you can use two DT, hit 30 and dodge in safe with an energy gain of 16,36.
I really cant classify DT-OR better than DB-DC.
DT does 15 damage with a cooldown of 1.55 seconds. DB does 6 damage with a cooldown of 0.5 seconds, so effectively you can use 3x DB for every Dragon Tail. So, in situations where you use DB, say, 5 times, for example, you may not be able to fit in 2x Dragon Tail while still being able to dodge the attacks.
Significantly, the cooldown for Dragon Claw is 1.7 seconds, just a bit longer than the cooldown for Dragon Tail itself ... And as for Outrage, the cooldown is 3.9 seconds (longer than the Hyper Beam cooldown). So unless you're very careful when you use Outrage, you're going to be eating a few quick attacks, maybe even a charge attack from the opponent --> this is going to result in a real-world DPS loss due to energy waste.
When you look at the question in these terms, you're left to wonder whether DT-Outrage actually performs better than DB-DC in real life gym battles. Yes, it may have better spamming DPS, but when you factor in dodging, energy waste, etc. DB-DC is still the more versatile attacker in my opinion. You're going to be able to kill more pokemon using DB-DC because you won't be soaking up all the damage during the cooldowns of DT and Outrage, respectively.
As frank mentioned above, DT cooldown is now 1.1seconds, so less than 2 DC. 1.5 was the initial value and got changed yesterday. With old value also theoretical it was weaker than DT.
Unless you have a scenario where you can fit 5 DC and not 6, DT deals more damage before a dodge.
With DC and Outrage is harder to do a real world analisys.
2xDB = 2x0.5s = 1s < 1.1s hehe.
Considering you want to dodge in safe:
If the AI hit every 2s:
3 DB = 1.5s-18dmg-12 energy;
1 DT = 1.1s-15dmg-8.18 energy.
In this scenario, DB > DT (more damage and energy gain).
If the AI hit every 3s:
5 DB = 2.5s-30dmg-20energy;
2 DT = 2.2s-30dmg-17 energy.
In this scenario DB > DT (more energy gain).
If the AI hit every 3.5s:
6 DB = 3s-36dmg-24energy;
2 DT = 2.2s-30dmg-17 energy.
In this scenario DB > DT (more damage and energy gain).
I think that as you said DB/DC is the best moveset, you won't have the higher DPS but this game is not about dps, as it is not about CP, it is a combination of things and in all cases you will do more damage before fainting using a DB/DC than any of the new moves just because they are slower and more difficult to dodge with them.
In my opinion I prefer to take down 3 mons dodging even if it takes me 10 more seconds than 2 mons those 10 seconds faster, let's be honest, you won't skip a gym or choose a different attacking mon just because you will need to battle 10 more seconds (and I say 10 just to make the difference big, because maybe it is like 2-3 seconds lol).
Just my personal thoughts but for me saying that DT is better than DB is like saying that Gyarados is a good defensive mon just because he has one of the higher CP of the game.
