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My defender tier list

Considering damage output before being killed, time necessary to defeat and gym placement

I havent done enough gym battle since gen2 so that's just a estimation

I consider pokemon with max CP under 2800 as unusable. They were hardly usable before g2 and now there are even more defender with higher CP.

Tier 1
Blissey without Psychic

Tier 1,5
Blissey with Psychic

Tier 2
Snorlax with ZH

Tier 2,5

Dragonite with Outrage
Snorlax with Lick

Tier 3
Tyranitar (crunch)
Vaporeon
Exeggutor with Confusion

Tier 3,5
Rhydon

Tier 4
Gyarados with DT
Golem
Lapras (such low CP)
Machamp with DP

Edit : I moved up vaporeon, Dragonite and Lick Snorlax

Asked by Impala8 years 4 months ago

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Answers

Dragonite is a lot better than Tyranitar, and Vaporeon is better than Rhydon, despite both having slightly lower CP.

True, Tyranitar will be destroyed by fighting type with triple disavantage.

But highest CP avalaible plus good machamp or heracross is not so easy to get.

Maybe Dragonite deserve tier 2,5 with improved defensive moveset and Lapras Nerf.

Tyranitar has many many weaknesses for such a good rank at defending. Also, Tyranitar doesn't have a powerfull Quick move such as confusion, bubble, dragon tail, dragonbreath, razor leaf, fire Spin, etc. The only good aspect is his fantastic CP.

Interesting and makes sense (but Rhydon should be below Vap with his double weakness to one of the strongest mons, Vap :) ).
What lacks in there is a position for tough defenders with lower cp (slowbro and king, maybe still poliwarth, others from gen 2). Or do you consider theiy are no more good defenders due to dark types maybe?
What about Espeon and even Flareon as high CP mon? Are they weaker than Machamp or Golem?

I think Flareon is close to Machamp but has double disavantage vs water. I think Machamp is a bit better.

Espeon may deserve tier 4 but very low stamina.

What is Golem advantage vs. new Flareon, both with double disadvantage to water?

Base stats total and repartition + less dodgable charged moves
211+229+160x2 = 760
246+204+130x2 = 710

You are right with stamina indeed. Also with base stats distribution but not due to their sum but due to their product. And given golem ones are more balanced, product is higher, so golem is better, as you mentioned.
100 + 100 = 200
1+ 199 = 200
100100=10000
1199 = 199
Above is an extreame example to show why we need to multiply the stats instead of sum them. In damage formula they work with multiplication and duvision, not with sumation and differences :).

Vaporeon and Snorlax with Lick are way better defenders than Dragonite, Tyranitar and Exeggutor.

Im not sure Vaporeon is better than Dragonite now. He is better than defender than Tyranitar but way lower CP. (only n°7 available max CP)

I'd put Blissey as tier 0 since it's that much better. But that doesn't really matter.

What about Dragonite's legacy movesets?
Mine has Steel Wing/Dragon Pulse and I'd be really pissed if it turned out as a weak defensive moveset. I haven't even maxed it out yet...

I woud say movesets with DP and DC are rouglhy half a tier lower than the ones with Outrage.
The main difference compared to before is that the ones with DB are as good as the ones with SW now for defense.

What about Steelix? I consider it way better than Golem.

What about Espeon? It is only slightly worse than Exeggutor imo.

What about other moveset on Dragonite?

Espeon is more of an attacker than defender... Exeggutor with Confusion + Seed Bomb or Solar Beam is a beast on defense.
Espeon : 130 Stamina
Exeggutor : 190
So I think Espeon is not slightly worse but way inferior to Exeggutor on defense ;-)

Pure defensive (amount of damage a pkm can take) is sta x def:
Exeggutor: 158 x 190 = 30.020
Espeon: 194 x 130 = 25.200
The difference is noticable, but not huge.
It is easyer to get a type advantage against exeggutor than Espeon. Espeon hits way harder.
Combination of these facts makes Espeon as good at Exeggutor least imo.

Why would Steelix be way better than Golem. Similar total of base stats (only 3% more for steelix). Similar moveset. Both Double disavantage vs Water (double weak/unresisted vs Weak/resisted)

And steelix almost 500 CP lower...

Why would Steelix be way better than Golem. Similar total of base stats (only 3% more for steelix)

Defense is more important on defenders (look to blissey), but underestimated by CP via square rooting. Pure Defense on
Golem: 229 x 160 = 33640
Steelix: 333 x 150 = 49950

Both Double disavantage vs Water (double weak/unresisted vs Weak/resisted)

This does not apply for all moves. Earthquake on Steelix hits water for normal damage.
Golem always takes double super effective damage.

500 CP lower

Yes, underestimated by CP-Calculation, i said already. But still a better defender imo.

The combination of better defense and better resistance against water will roughly double (Factor 1,9) time until it faints against the same water attacker.
During this time, it deals a bit more damage than golem:
Steelix: 148 * 333 * 150 * 0,8 (being hit super effective) * 0,9 (hitting not super effective or non SAB with quick move) = 5.323.000
Golem: 211 * 229 * 160 * 0,8² = 4.949.000

Legacy Kangskhan with Stomp....that STAB dps

This is a great thoughtful list. Thank you for putting it together. The main changes to the gym meta is to slow down the spamming attacks, which makes weaknesses a bit harder to exploit.

My list

Tier 1

We can all agree that Blissey and Snorlax are at the top. Although, for me, Snorlax with Lick belongs much lower. Let's not confuse "high CP" with "hard to fight against". Snorlax with Lick is really easy to beat.

Tier 2

Then I would put Vaporeon (high HP, CP, strong moves and single weakness to grass).

Tier 2.5

Then there is a tier of "Strong mons with exploitable weaknesses" - Dragonite, Rhydon, Gyarados, Exeggutor, Tyrannitar.

Tier 3

Then there is Lapras because of low CP

Tier 4

Then there is "the rest" - wouldn't be my top choice mons but offer good variety - Golem, Poliwrath, Venusaur, Jolteon, Flareon, Arcanine, Psychic with Confusion, etc.

Part of me feels like this list looks a lot like the prior list, minus the nerfs and + Blissey and Tyrranitar... Hopefully as we play the gym meta more we'll discover more subtlety that will make more defenders relevant. If not, then the gym game will stay stale.