Why Dragonite is the best counter to Lapras so far
In the post [https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/q-a/vaporeon-attack], I claimed that "the best mon to fight Lapras is Dragonite". I then was, not surprisingly, strongly refuted by the majority. I was even accused of trolling. So I'm posting to clarify a little bit.
First of all, I'm NOT trolling. I've been responsible for posting statements on this site, including this one. I don't draw any conclusion I'm not sure of.
[PART I: Raw Data]
Back to the theme. To begin with, I'll post my in-game test results on fighting a Lapras - not theoretical analysis, not battle simulations, just real battle results.
Important Notes:
* All attackers dodge specials only. All managed to KO Lapras without fainting.
* These tests were conducted on Dec 18. I'll post new results where every attacker is maxed out later.
{IV = 6/14/15, Moves = Ice Shard + Blizzard, Level = 32, CP = 2515}
{Moves = DB + DC, Level = 36.5}
{Initial HP = 151, Final HP = 48, Time left = 69}
{Moves = E + FB, Level = 35.5}
{Initial HP = 110, Final HP = 30, Time left = 60}
{Moves = FF + FB, Level = 35.5}
{Initial HP = 144, Final HP = 41, Time left = 61}
{Moves = T + Thunder, Level = 37.5}
{Initial HP = 112, Final HP = 19, Time left = 62}
{Moves = Z + SB, Level = 36.5}
{Initial HP = 155, Final HP = 30, Time left = 70}
{Moves = PC + P, Level = 37.5}
{Initial HP = 97, Final HP = 11, Time left = 68}
[PART II: Analysis]
Two metrics were used to evaluate the results:
1) Time: The duration of the battle, which equals to (99 - Time left);
2) KD: Kill-Death ratio, which equals to [Initial HP/(Initial HP - Final HP)]. It measures the attacker's potential; in this case, how many Lapras(es) can the attacker kill before it faints.
Attacker Time KD
1 Dragonite 30 1.47
2 Flareon 39 1.38
3 Arcanine 38 1.40
4 Jolteon 37 1.20
5 Exeggutor 29 1.24
6 Alakazam 31 1.13
As we can see, Dragonite outperforms Flareon, Arcanine, and Jolteon by both Time and KD. It takes almost the same time (difference within one second) for Alakazam and Exeggutor to do the job, but they both yield lower KD (lower than fire types).
*For your reference, I also tested Dragonite with perfect dodging. The result is:
{Initial HP = 151, Final HP = 100, Time left = 59}
Which yields:
Time = 40, KD = 2.96
[PART III: Conclusion]
In another post [https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/q-a/opinions-new-defender-tier-list], GamePress's Defender Tier List contributor \u\dondon151 wrote "The issue of the double weaknesses is interesting. We found that defenders with double weaknesses were consistently underestimated by the community."
It is also true in the case of attacking. Yes, Dragonite is double-weak to ice. But don't forget that he possesses the strongest neutral damage output. Therefore he ends the battle quicker with less damage taken.
That being said, I'm well aware that these results don't represent every scenario. Only one move set of Lapras was tested. Also, not every attacker is at the same level, though the difference is small. Perhaps in the future, I'll post more results.
Besides, the conclusion "Dragonite is the best to beat Lapras" is drawn under the condition that Lapras being the sole gym defender. If there are multiple defenders and one doesn't have enough Dragonite, there could be better choices for beating Lapras, as \u\Impala indicated. I 100% agree with that.
At last, as always, I welcome any comment/objection.
Answers
1-2 bits of HP.
There are four key quantities in a battle: 1) damage to Defender per Quick Attack; 2) damage to Defender per Charge Attack; 3) damage to Attacker per Quick Attack; 4) damage to Attacker per Charge Attack.
1) and 3) are the most important and I assure you that they stay the same after I recently maxed them out.
There might be 1 bit HP difference in 4).
That wouldn't change anything. Dragonite just does much more damage than Arcanine (of same lvl and IVs) and they both do normal damage against Lapras. The only things that do SE damage against Lapras don't have strong enough moves and/or ATK to surpass Dragonite/Alakazam.
The real reason I don't think of Dragonite as a counter is because he takes too much damage and would not likely be able to take on Laprases stronger than itself. Notice in this match up, all attackers can successfully kill the Lapras. So if we gradually power up the Lapras? Which attackers start to fail first? Which ones continue to succeed?
Your analysis is limited by 2 issues
One of the problems with your Analysis is that you arent also capturing "Energy Left". I get you are assuming the Lapras is only Defender
But will 5 Thunderbolts outpreform 2 Thunders?
Second, I am not sure measure HPs Left as a Percentage is actually worthwhile. I would care more about HPs Left for Next Attacker OR in terms of Potions.
The Flareon for example would take 4 regular potions to heal up, the Dragonite would take 6.
You're making good points. As far as "Energy Left" is concerned, I indeed didn't record that. That's why I'm planning to screen-record new tests and upload them so that everything will be clear.
Though it's hard to conduct multiple-Lapras-in-a-row tests because it's hard to get 2 identical Lapras.
In any sense, I think the conclusion should be adjusted to "Dragonite is best - but not much better than others - when fighting Lapras".
You should add the lvl/cp and moveset of the lapras to your raw data.[edit: sorry, I didn't see it way already there]
But very interesting results. Still, I'd say that even if he's the best at killing Lapras I wouldn't use dragonite for that job: if you want to take out 6-10 pokemons, he is best used to kill some other pokes (where his KD-ratio is probably way higher 1.47). Of course if you have multiple dragonite attackers, he's great against Lapras.
To me the biggest surprise is the ZH/SB exeggutor. Best DPS and okay KD-ratio. I'm not sure I still want to power up my arcanine (marginally better than exeg for Lapras, Pinsir does a fine job against exeg)
- "
{IV = 6/14/15, Moves = Ice Shard + Blizzard, Level = 32, CP = 2515}" was in the post. Did I get anything wrong? - I agree as I said in the post.
- That ZH/SB Exeggutor KO that Lapras exactly after the 2nd Solar Beam, before Lapras uses the 2nd Blizzard. He dodges Lapras's Blizzard during charging the 2nd Solar Beam.
Nice and thanks for sharing! I appreciate the time it takes to compile this information.
Have to admit I was surprised at how well Flareon did (took 80 damage - lease of any matchup) vs Arcanine (took 103) despite both having same level, great attacks, and killed Lap within a second of each other. Did Arc miss a dodge, or some other reason?
Interesting thread, thanks for sharing your simulations. That being said, you need to run the sim with Bite / FB Arcanine -- Fire Fang is lower DPS quick move because of the lower energy generation. It's been proven in many simulations. This is hampering the numbers for Arcanine in your sim.
Also, if you're finding there is energy waste from using FB try out Flamethrower too.
One final point: you should be using Ice Beam for Lapras' charge move. It's slightly superior to blizzard on defense.
I've done similar calculations. My favored attacker in both theory and practice is a Lick/Bodyslam Snorlax, assuming I dodge everything and Bodyslam between dodges (not waiting for charged attack). A Dragonbreath Dragonite is much faster, but also takes much more damage. I prioritize taking much less damage above spending some extra seconds in battle.
Snorlax actually takes about the same amount of damage, but less as a % of overall HP. Dragonite is much more potion efficient, so I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Snorlax can kill more pokemon with the insane amount of HP he's got, but the potion usage is going to be a lot higher than if you were using Dragonite.
well, if you're only using max potions then it's obviously just as efficient; however, in terms of the actual amount of HP that needs to be healed, Snorlax requires more potions.
But yeah, it's obviously more efficient to use max potions on mons with more HP. That just goes without saying. You can save hyper potions for dragonites and gyarados, and use your max potions for Snorlax and Lapras.
But to say that Snorlax doesn't take as much damage just isn't true -- he's just got a much larger HP to draw from.
I looked into this case in more detail. I think the main reason we are seeing different results is I analyzed to pokemon I own, which includes a Dragon Breath / Dragon Pulse Dragonite. I don't have one with Dragon Claw. It sounds like there are also some differences in the methods we are using to simulate battles.
That said, under my assumptions, I get both less absolute HP lost with my Snorlax than Dragonite and a far less percent HP lost with my Snorlax.
In practice, I often am going to battle a series of gym defenders in a row without potions in between, so % HP lost is important to me. I've tried using my Dragonite in practice and it works okay, unless I miss a few dodges. I find my Snorlax is much more friendly to dodge errors.
Body Slam is very similar to Dragon Claw in the sense that you can basically dodge everything, but with Dragon Pulse you're definitely going to get hit with some fast attacks during the cooldown - perhaps even a charge move sometimes.
I would imagine that's affecting the damage taken by the Dragonite, as with dragon claw you would be able to dodge all of those attacks.
