We need to talk about machamp
With the larvitar event coming up, machamp has just lost his primary use, being the ultimate counter to help get Tyranitar.
Im not saying machamp's useless now, it still has its uses, like blissey (who isnt really as hard to beat as people like to think) but these uses are GREATLY diminished. Machamp's so highly rated because of a few choice match ups that arent really relevant following this event. IF anything, all machamp will be used for is Larvitar candy from raids
and before any of the 'regi, dialga, kyurem' raid people pop up, those arent in the game yet, it is also very likely that there will be better match ups against them other thank just machamp, plus all the psychic and flying types post gen 4
(this isnt just for machamp specifically, but really all fighting types, machamp's just the most obvious example)
Answers
No, but mostly it is that gym offense and defens is completely different from raiding, it is far easier to beat say a blissey than it is to say beat granbull simply due to the stats.
the argument that is the ultimate blissey counter or something is completely moot as blissey isnt as hard to beat as people think, and shockingly, not everyone uses blissey
Seriously?? Yes we all know that with time and patience any gym can be felled, BUT (and its a big but-see) Machamp does it faster than anymon else. The top or most common gym defenders, almost all of them are normal typed; Chansey, Blissey, Snorlax, Slaking (which gets off no damage), and Lapras is ice, so don't use him, or do, or send him to the Prof for research to find out why you think he is useless now, but we disagree with you.
I say people will still be raiding Tyranitars hoping to get high IV ones. Also, another thing to consider is that we still don’t know the spawn rate of Larvitars in this CD; it might be lower than usual to prevent people from easily mass stocking candies of something still considered a top tier Pokemon AND stop raiding for them (which in the end would result in less passes being sold).
That is also true, and I do agree it will still be a use of machamp, but that isnt applicable to all, if may actually make more people do other raids, as that was more or less the ONLY tyranitar source, I will admit I got machamp just for tyranitar, but after getting a tyranitar, machamp became needless, people may start doing other raids because they dont need to do tyranitar to get one.
Agaist R-Rock and R-Ice, MEtagross aggron and scizor, steel's super effective against both, resists both (neutral for any rock moves on scizor), and both have higher defense than machamp
against R-Steel, blaziken, charizard, really any fire type as it resists steel, or heck water ground types also resisting steel and dealing super effective STAB
the regi's are all bulk, and against raid bosses of that kind, especially when they will be hitting hard, fragile DPS pokemon like machamp cant hold up as well as say a tank, because they get off more charge attacks
You do have a point wil absol, but a tier 4 raid boss isnt as hard to deal with, namely because absol isnt that defensive, tyranitar can deal with it pretty well in my experiences, that and fairy types like grabull
I'm gonna stop you right there when you mention Aggron is better against Regirock than Machamp. You know DPS is king against raids, right? Especially bulky raid bosses where you're more likely to be pressed against the clock. All but the absolute worst of Machamps movesets perform better than Aggron in that regard.
But thats what I mean, its use is extremely situational, like every pokemon, the only reason machamp is so highly rated is that the pokemon that are out it has had the advantage over. If the type match ups or raid boses were different, machamp would be nothing. Remove those pokemon from raid rotation and you remove the purpose of machamp.
It will still have uses at anti blissey'ing, until you know conkeldurr replaces it, or any of the gen 4 fighting types
Its the kind of reality people dont want to face, after dumping hundreds of candy and hundreds of thousands of stardust into espeon and machamp, those pokemon loose their uses to other, better pokemon
Except that there is a good chance none of the gen IV fighting types will surpass Machamp as fighting king. Both Lucario and Gallade will be held back by their movesets if there aren't any new fighting charge moves coming (e.g. Aura Sphere, Drain Punch, Focus Punch) and Lucario's defences are paper thin too. Moreover, Infernape and Toxicroak aren't worth mentioning and no one knows how Arceus will work in PoGo. Conkeldurr will indeed surpass Machamp as fighting king (if it gets C/DP), but that's still far away.
Machamp will be very usefull in clearing gyms, neutral dps in cloudy weather, and ANY raid boss weak to fighting moves for quite some time.
". . . it still has its uses, like blissey (who isnt really as hard to beat as people like to think) but these uses are GREATLY diminished."
You haven't presented any argument for why the other uses (e.g. Blissey, Snorlax) will be diminished as of June 16. Maybe they will be diminished as of Gen 4, but (a) diminished doesn't mean useless. The top monsters aren't really separated by that much—players with strong Machamps will still get good use out of them. And (b) Gen 4 isn't June 16, and isn't even scheduled. If you look far enough ahead, *most* Pokémon get supplanted. If you sit around every Gen saying something better is coming at some unknown future date . . . well, have fun with that.
Note also that Machamp is a top recommendation from this site for every T4 raid, not just Tyrannitar.
I also dispute the claim that Machamp's "primary use" is the Tyrannitar counter. That's your opinion. I suspect that in practice the anti-Blissey role is much more common, for the simple reason that Tyrannitar raids are *orders of magnitude* less common than people putting Blisseys in gyms.
All of that said, I agree with your basic point that June 16 diminishes Machamp's usefulness in one specific respect.
I do agree, I dint say machamp was useless, just a lot less useful. where im from, any time theres a machamp raid people go nuts because its the pokemon that lets you get tyranitar, or something else as a raid boss, just because soemthign is good against the pokemon that are the best doesn't mean those original pokemon are good, I agree with the snorlax and blissey thing, but as stated, they really arent that hard, their purpose in gyms is just timer stall and annoyance to players, fighting doesn't beat them, its persistence, anything with a strong attack can do machamps job against them (and not have that psychic/fairy weakness). Plus, tats the reason blissey is that way, it isnt able to deal with anything that ISNT a machamp
As a raid attacker that is true, but also note that raids can change, some may stay, some may go, machamp was reliable and it still is. But its reliability is *heavily* dependent on raids and gym line ups, from the way people talk about it new playrs would think its the god of the whole game and can beat up ghost types.
I know this because I started 3 months ago, and machamp was my second raid, Im level 32 now, and have never noticed macham being any better than anything else.
This again? From a raid perspective, Machamp is useful against all T4's, three of which are staples outside of specific events (Tyranitar, Absol, and Aggron). I know your whole argument is that Larvitar CD makes Tyranitar raids obsolete - consider that there are people who might miss CD or who may need Larvitar candy after the event, or people who simply started playing after the event. Ttar raid popularity may diminish slightly after CD but eventually need will bring it back up.
You can't really rule out its usefulness in future raids just because it conflicts with your argument. Sure there will probably be some better options, but odds are they'll be legendaries. Legendaries are expensive to power up, while recent events have allowed people to catch level 35 Machops and call it a day. This is mostly important for the Regis where they're next in the rotation and nothing is being released to challenge Machamp's title.
As far as future gens, we'll have to see when they release. Remember when we thought the gen 3 fighting types would beat out Machamp and then they didn't? Even with Blaziken taking neutral instead of SE damage from Dazzling Gleam Blisseys it isn't as useful as Machamp. Hariyama came close, only besting it in TDO and not DPS. The same thing could happen to Gallade, Lucario, and Infernape - even then, Machop candies will still likely be much easier to come by than the other three. I will concede that in gen 5 Conkeldurr will probably beat Machamp provided it gets the same moves, but that's still 4 generations of being the king.
And having a particular legendary in the rotation doesn't make it obsolete! Just because Giratina walls Machamp doesn't mean you can't use Machamp elsewhere, namely every gym with a Blissey/Chansey/Snorlax/Slaking.
/endrant
And what aboyt people who consider the fact that everyone has a souped up machamp? where im from, you never see blissey or snorlax because everyone knows its pointless because everyone else has a machamp that can take it down, people use the bulky normal types on defense so everyone gets strong fighting type to counter them, making the bulky normal less useful. I dont disagree that those are the best defenders and that machamp is the best counter, but thats the point, EVERYONE knows that. Of you were right and those are the best defensers, why is every gym not 6 blissey, snorlax, slaking and the like? Reason, everyone has a machamp, thus them being usefull is reduced becayse everyone has the counter, so they arent used as much, making machamp not necessary.
"...EVERYONE knows that."
I hate to break it to you, but the reason you don't see the holy 4some in every gym is NOT because everyone has a few beefy machamps as you try to paint here.
It is because those 4 are rare, really rare, not everyone has them.
It is also because they are expensive to revive, and some people are not swimming in spare revives and potions.
And it is also because some people want their pokemons thrown out of gyms to get coins.
And lets not forget about the fact some people put specific pokemons in gyms so they can feed them and receive candy for them.
Just to name a few reasons...
Just because you play the game a certain way doesn't mean everyone does.
Not once has the primary use for any of my Machamp been Tyranitar raids. It's still hands-down, without question, the quickest avenue to taking down Blissey, Snorlax, Chansey, Slaking, Steelix, Tyranitar, Aggron, Lapras (I could honestly go on and on and on) in gyms, and is more-than-decent against Golem and Rhydon.
So I'm going to have to disagree with your comments that Machamp has "lost its primary use" and that his "uses are greatly diminished" - it's all utter shit tbh.
I don't quite understand why u think Machamp will become less useful after Larvitar CD. If you're a regular raider like me Machamp is the most used out of all of the mons & will continue to be so well after CD had been & gone. You don't just do a Tyra raid once, if u want a strong team of them u do every one you come across. After CD this is even more so as u'll want a team of the strongest rock Pokémon AND the strongest dark & I v much doubt u'll amass the Larvitar candy needed to do this in 3 hours. So Machamp has longevity not just for Tyra raids but many other tier 4's plus the Regi's who will be coming soon.
Erm...
Even after the Larvitar event, Machamp will be one of the primary Pokémon to use in Pokémon Go. And people will still do raids for Tyranitar - I would imagine that people will do at least as many Tyranitar raids after Larvitar day as before because they will have the Candy to raise up a good Tyranitar, which they may not currently have.
Save 123 Candies by beating a Tyranitar, get a guaranteed Good Tyranitar at Level 20 or 25, have 200 Candies saved up from Larvitar day (or more; the weather screwed me up on the Charmander day, but I've still got 600 Bulbasaur candies, 750 Dratnini and 750 Mareep candies left over from their particular days). It's a very good investment, and anyone who still needs a good Tyranitar even after Larvitar day (again, not a rare thing; the best Pokémon I've gotten from any Community day was a 100% Mareep... that I hatched from a 10km egg that I got on Community Day and hatched 15min after the event ended. (CENSORED!)) will still want to do Tyranitar raids.
So I think you're wrong about Machamp losing its' primary use in Pokémon Go. We'll have to wait and see what happens after Larvitar day to see, but unless I happen to get 3-4 Attack 15/IV 93+ Larvitars, I'm still going to be interested in doing Tyranitar raids. I just won't be wasting 5 Pinaps before switching to a Golden Razz anymore.
Others have already said it pretty well, so to summarize, it's safe to say that Machamp's relevancy isn't in any danger until maybe Gen 5 when Conkeldurr is released (if it gets C/DP). Even then, it's going to take time to build up Conkeldurr. We recently had two events where Machops were spawning like crazy, so from a resource-investment standpoint, Machamp has a distinct advantage here due to all the candies and weather boosted Machops people collected.
In raids, Machamp is still top dog against t-tar (which people will still raid, even after the June CD) along with most of the other current tier 4 bosses. Against the Regis, Machamp is the only one who will be SE against all 3 while also boasting stellar DPS output. Also, Aggron against the Regis is not a good idea. It's really not a good pick for any raid boss.
Not to mention that barring some massive overhaul to the gym system and another CP formula rework, Machamp will still be the uncontested king of the gym scene for the foreseeable future.
TL;DR Machamp is one of the most relevant Mons in the game right now on multiple fronts, and to try to contest that is just silly.
*** Sarcasm Alert ***
Yep, because now that we're having a community day for Larvitar, TTar raids will never be important again, Blissey, Chansey and Snorlax will never be used in gyms again, and all those wonderful double rock TTars that people evolve on CD will never be used in gyms either (if they were, Machamps resistance to rock would be useful there, too).
Seriously, dude, Machamp will be relevant until something that's pure fighting and is better comes along. The fact that Normal, Dark, and Rock pokemon are weak to fighting is enough. Throw in Ice and Steel, and one has a very relevant pokemon. The Regis are coming, eventually. Don't forget that Arceus is Normal, and hence weak to fighting (well, we don't know what Arceus will be like until it comes out, but we can expect Machamp will be good against it).
I don't see this event as impacting the importance of Machamp one bit. For 3 hours, Larvitars will be more common, and there's a special move to be had. Outside of that, the meta remains the same.
I've only wasted passes on Ttar raids twice and that's when I was very dumb. I don't care at all about raiding Tyranitar and I still value my 11 Machamp more than I value anything else in my attacker collection just because Blissey is a thing. Thing is, nothing comes close to being as time-efficient as Machamp is when taking down a Blissey, and in areas where the gym scene DOESN'T SUCK it is necessary to obliterate the fatasses as fast as possible. Heck, most of the best attackers are all weak to fighting so investing in a well-rounded team or teams of Machamp is just about the best investment one can make in the game, and that assessment does not even include raids because spending passes on anything that isn't legendary is not a very smart thing to do IMO, but my local raiding scene is amazing so that's a personal bias. Sorry, but Machamp is here to stay.
Although Zen Headbutt and Dazzling Gleam are both super effective against Machamp, it remains the best Blissey counter because:
1. Dazzling Gleam is also super effective against Dragonite and Tyranitar.
2. Counter and Dynamic Punch are super effective against Blissey. Other counters (like Raikou) take neutral damage from Blissey but also deal neutral damage to her, leading to longer battle times with no increase in survivability. (Unless you have Mewtwo with Focus Blast or Entei with Overheat.)
3. Attacking Machamps can dodge Dazzling Gleam. Defending Blisseys cannot dodge Dynamic Punch.
1: Larvi CD doesn’t give infinite candy. People will still have to raid Ttars for candy to max them out.
2: Machamp is way easier to obtain than almost anything else, especially with the events in the past 2 months. Now, everyone and their mother has 6 C/DP Machamps.
3: Nothing changes the types that Fighting is SE against.
Machamp will still be on top (at least top 3) what are u talking about?!
Fighting is the only super effectiv type against normal which most top defenders are. Personally I have 2 in my team against gyms (Nite, Raikou, Lugia, Articuno) but I know a lot of players who have 3-4 Machamps on their team.
Regis are next and guess who is best against them? Moltres might outperform it specially in sunny weather but due to high investment I doubt he is fully replacing Machamp.
After event Ttar will still be most wanted. Maybe Absol & Aggron cuz shiny. But who is top counter for them again?
Dont fool anyone: Machamp primary use never was getting Ttar. Machamps role was ruling from the top. Comunity day changes not that much. Double rock Ttar is great against the raid bosses we already had...
