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The REAL defenders tier list

When I look through the defenders tier list of GP, I dont really feel satisfied at all, because imo they factor CP way too much there. I wonder, what would this list look like, if you put CP aside?
Usually I sit in 10-12 gyms anyway with enough high CP/high quality defenders, so when I conquer new gyms I would like to place the best defenders there are in it without caring too much about CP.
So there are basically some questions, when it comes to rating a defenders strength for me:
1. How good (hard hitting and annoying) are the moves?
2. Potential time in the combat / durability / bulk (-> more total damage)
3. Deterring effect. (e.g. Omastar is annoying af if you dont have a good plant attacker and it has Ancient power, but most people dont even feel threatened by it because they simply dont even know about the potential)
4. How many counters exist, how useful are the counters in general (if there is only one D-nite in the gym and the rest is Gyarados/Snorlax/Vaporeon, I dont take a Lapras with me, because it isnt worth it to waste a spot for a mon, that only has use for one defender, whereas I would always take a Jolteon with me, because it can handle both Gyarados and Vape, even SW-Dnites.)
5. How well does the defender perform vs counters?

I didnt do any deeper research yet to do my own tier list, BUT what I can definitely say:

Everything with Confusion should be just below Blissey and Snorlax, as it hits so fricking hard and absolutely deters people from attacking your gym.
Same goes for IS-Lapras.
Also I feel like Poliwrath is still quite strong with Ice Punch and Bubble.
And so on...

Anyway: I will now give an initial list idea and would love to hear your thoughts and potential improvements on this.

Tier 1:
Blissey (any set)
Snorlax (Zen-Body only) (Zen-HB/HS, L-BS as B-sets)

Tier 2:
Exeggutor (C-SeB or SoB)
Slowbro (C-IB)
Lapras (IS-anything)

Tier 3:
Vaporeon (AT or HP)
Dragonite (DT-O/H or SW/DC)
Espeon (C-PB)
Slowking (C-B or P)
Poliwrath (B-IP)

Tier 4:
Cloyster (IS-HP)
Rhydon (MS-SE)
Donphan (C-PR)
Omastar (RT-AP with W-AP as B set)
Wiggly (P-PR)
Venusaur (RL-SBomb)

I'm quite sure, I was missing out on a few high quality defenders, but sure as hell I would not include any Gyarados or Tyranitar, because they have horrible 2-level disadvantages vs super common and useful Eevolutions and Stab-lacking suboptimal movesets.

Asked by Ripperli8 years 1 month ago

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4 and 5 are key. This is why I always say diverse gyms are best. When you have that 1 pokemon, such as a fire type, or electric type, people have to choose if they are going to use a pokemon just to counter that one. And if they don't they may be running a risk. Flareon with FS hits really hard, as does Jolteon with VS. My Jolteon has a battle won, I'm guessing because someone assumed they would just quickly dispose of him with whatever pokemon they had.

It is also really annoying when they counter the counters. Slowbro with ice beam has always been my favorite defender. I also like my Tentacruel with blizzard and Muk with dark pulse. People at least have to prepare for the possibility they have a SE attack coming at them.

I'm not sure it really matters, in terms of multiplier, what move slowbro has. If it has ice beam, it lacks STAB, but hits SE to grass. So, use electric (could use gengar with water gun to really rip through it). If it has water, use grass. It is has physic, use dark. Umbreon is an easy counter now against slowbro. A bite gyarados would also do well against a water slowbro. While SE attacks are nice, stab moves are generally preferred (equally as good, if not better).

I'm not saying the idea is bad. The existence of wild charge on arcanine made me switch to golem to attack them instead of vaporeon.

Use Gengar into a Slowbro and watch him get wrecked by Confusion. Who is actually using an Umbreon to attack? Gyarados gets hit unresisted by both moves of Slowbro.
Jolteon and double-grass Eggy are the most viable counters for Slowbro I would say, but Jolteon is not quite tanky, so a Confusion already does some serious damage. Eggy gets hit SE by Icebeam, so you better watch out, when you fire off that Solarbeam.
Slowbro is absolutely amazing as a defender and probably as close as it gets to being a perfect defender in PoGo.

I use Umbreon to attack. My 17xx Umbreon can handle two 2400 espeons.

Gyarados doesn't resist slowbro, but since you use ice beam, who cares? That is no multiplier. It's the same as using stab water to attack an eggs (1.25x0.8=1).

I'm not saying slowbro is a bad defender, but you seem to be raving it. I think the placement on the published tier is pretty good. Could probably have it up with vaporeon and lapras, but that is arguing half a tier. I don't really see how, after the pink event, neither jolteon nor eggs are rare at all, so everyone has lots of counters. The same issues with the high cp mons apply to slowbro. At that point, what is wrong with choosing the ones with higher defense and stamina?

I do agree gyarados is too high on the list, but in general, the original list is solid. There really aren't any hidden gems you've unearthed. Slowbro is one of the top rated defenders on that list under 3100 cp. That seems to be your point and it is made on the original list.

Just because you do so, it doesnt mean, many people do so, in fact I didnt know anyone, who would do so.

I can invert your argument and say Bite only has a 1,25 multiplier due to being SE. Bite is not, what actually hurts a defender. Its the charge move, that is filled up really fast because of good energy generation of Bite. Crunch is a bad offensive move however and every other move will also only have a 1*multiplier.

I dont want to fight the GP Ratings, I am just curious to know, how it would look like without the high place argument. Hence I am not even disappointed with Slowbros positioning there, although it should indeed be right there with Lapras. I cant really argue with you here, as I fully agree, but I feel like we are discussing a different theme.

my almost 2200 slowbro can take 50% of my 3k snorlaxes healt pool if one ice beam hits.
he can cast ice beam twice in match.
i think it is pretty good ammount of dmg inflicted, cus snorlax have big healt pool

Obviously they are almost most effective when running though the lineup the first time. I know what I like to see and what I don't like to see and I love it when Slowbro has water pulse, because my typical counter is Tangela (due to the number of Vaporeons and Rhydons in the gym.) And to agree with you on 1 point, Umbreon is a good counter. I actually use my Umbreon on attacking. He takes out 2 Eggys with minimal dodging.

Same, the Slowbro nerf disappointed me wayyy more than the Lapras nerf, I fricking love this thing. Amazing quick AND charge move with perfect coverage and tons of damage!

I will consider Muk and Tentacruel too, thx for that input! The problem I have with the poison typing is the -weakness to double-ground moveset versions of Rhydon and Golems, which are useful against Snorlax aswell. Blizzard got a lot faster now though, so Tentacruel may be not completely helpless.
Muk is especially good, because it hits psychics like Alakazam and Espeon hard, but Rhydon unfortunately also resists Poison Jab. On the other hand DP is reeeeally spammy, so it may not even be this much of a problem in fact.

That is why you need to be strategic where you place it. Every pokemon has a weakness, but if you can at least get people to switch out a pokemon, they take unneeded damage and lose the energy the stored up. Also, everyone's style is different. I actually don't have any ground pokemon in my attacking line-up because I normally use psychic types against Snorlax and water vs fire. Personally, I place my Muk between water types, so if people do use a ground pokemon against them, they have to switch out.

The sad truth is there's only 4 tiers of defenders:
- Blissey
- ZH snorlax
- Pokemon with enough CP to stand above a couple of Blissey/Snorlax
- The rest

You can even skip the last 2 tiers for practical purposes.

As I said, I dont give a damn about CP tbh. On the other hand I dont have 10-12 Blissey/Snorlax, so I would have to take other defenders as well. And I actually feel way less comfortable facing a C-SeB Eggy than a Zen-HB or EQ Snorlax for example tbh. So I wouldnt say, there are no other defenders except for those 2.

You migth not agree, and I don't think anyone likes this situation, but it is what it is. Any pokemon can be melted down with the rigth attacker, this only get worse with multiple attackers, your best defense is finding a gym in a place that doesn't get too much trafic and place your pokemon as high as you can.

Again, nobody likes this situation, but you can't really ignore it just because you "feel more confortable" doing so.

Exactly, nothing more real than what it is out there

Like the train of thought, but gyarados really isn't that bad any more. DR/HP with his attack stats can wipe out 1-2 jolts. That's 2 less Pokémon your oppent brings + potion/rev.
Nothing outside of Snorlax, and Blissey is really "good" and there's a counter to everything so idk. Eggs with confusion seed bomb is one I don't like to go up against ATM. Takes my fire poke out!
If you're not in a city like myself CP matter way less but My gf also lives in a city bio so I get the experience of both worlds. It really is a different gym scene. In the city it's all about how high you can place your mons and last longer.. bottom ringers get knocked out way to much by 2 account people!

I'm in the comfortable situation to have a really good group of other Instinct players, that I usually build up gyms from 0 to 8-10 with, so we can communicate and still get a decent spot with a lower CP mon. We have some guys with multi-accs in our city too, but it is not too bad actually. I get snitched out of maybe 3 gyms a week, but the bigger issue are some Mystic spoofers, that take down the whole gym anyway.
I get, why people value CP, but I rather be snitched out of some gyms and help my team with strong defenders.

When such a gym appears near me I always knock out lowest one when I pass by, just to start cp competition. Since gps drift fix it costs me no time.
I hope being involved in cp competition with teammates is more annoying than rebuilding a gym.

I think that the attack stat of Gyarados/Tyranitar compensate for lack of stab. It would be fun to see gyms packed with the pokemon from your list though and make it a lot harder. I have more trouble with low level trainers that packed a gym with a wide diversity of types than those 2800 CP+ gyms.

First, CP isn't some random number. It is based upon stats. Saying you completely ignores CP in ranking pokemon is essentially equivalent to saying you ignore attack/defense/hp stats in ranking them (which sounds silly).

Tyranitar with stone edge is a solid defender, arguably elite. At least tier 3 on your list. I can dodge dragonite easily, but tyranitar gets me. Gyarados may not be an elite defender, but it is at least deserving of being on the ranking.

Also, gamepress tries to make the defender tier list valuable for real gameplay. In cities, multi-accounting to take bottom spots is a real issue. CP matters here. It may not be how the game was intended, but it is a practical concern.

Ah, I should have expressed me more clearly there. I get, that CP=stats, but I want to look at this without the omnipresent argument "it will place you high in a gym". Lapras for example has a relatively low attack stat but still great defensive stats.

Another problem I have with Tyranitar is being NE into Vaporeon AND Machamp, in terms of Machamp Stone edge too. If you are unlucky it is even possible that you will not even fire off a SE, before Tyra dies. Btw, I own a IT-SE Tyranitar at lvl 20 and tried it out as a defender vs a 1400 CP Vaporeon and the experience was absolutely underwhelming.
Dragonite deals tons of damage even if you dodge him and it is equally hard to dodge a Hurricane or DC as it is to do so with Stone edge. Also DT has Stab and a way better coverage (SE into attacking D-nites and neutral vs Dragon-Gyara or Lapras).

Gyarados with DT/Crunch is the only one I would consider as being useful, because it will most likely fire off 2 Crunch before Jolteon grills it. HP is not even used in about 50-70 % of cases, when I attack him with my 2,3k Jolteon. Can agree though, that it should be in Tier 4 probably.

I agree and disagree with this. Yes, pokemon like Tyranitar are very good defenders, and even Gyarados with DT is greatly improved. Those pokemon with high cps after fall quickly, but hit hard, because their attack stat is what inflates their cp.

That being said, the cp formula doesn't favor all pokemon equally, particularly those with balanced stats like Slowbro, Poliwrath, and Hypno. In comparison, those pokemon are much better than other pokemon of similar cps. Strong quick attacks, like confusion, really put them into an elite tier, when compared to something like a Vaporeon with water gun or Gyarados with bite.

I think he means ignoring cp in the sense that it determines gym placement.

Machamp with Counter/DP at around 1/2 CP will kill Tyranitar before it can even use Stone Edge. T-Rex basically needs Crunch on defense to be mildly relevant.

Dragonite, Tyranitar, Gyarados, and Rhydon all sit on the same tier. Hard hitters with a double weakness that makes them easier to deal with. GP ranked them all accurately.

Omastar? Unless you have a legacy RT / RS it's a weak defender. Any grass mon around 1k CP will take him with plenty of health to spare.

Confusion is amazing on defense and eggy with C / SeB is a powerful defender. A quality psychic Mon with a confusion set is always a good defender, but none of them have the bulk to really punish attackers severely.

GP ratings have included factors such as placement, damage, bulk, etc. and made a fairly accurate list from my experience.

I would disagree on that double weakness argument. Sure, every mon has its weakness, but what separates them from each other is the ability to fight its counters. Gyarados and Tyra are not quite in the same categorie as Rhydon and especially not a good set Dragonite for multiple reasons. I think, if you would consider the criteria I gave, you would come to a similar result.

Rockslide isnt as good as it used to be. AP is the real deal now imo. And you might have noticed, that I was well aware of that double grass weakness, as it only sits in Tier 4 ;) And yes, legacy RT is probably requiered. Anyway, I usually dont attack with grass mons, except for Eggy. Dragonites usually get the job done better vs Vapes and Vapes vs Rhydon.

Really the stat distribution and STAB from quick moves is all Tyranitar and Gyarados have different from Rhydon and Dragonite.

None of them are well equipped for their counters anyway, Ice mon will destroy Dragonite as easily as fighting mon destroy Tyranitar. Fighting will resist a few of Tyranitar's moves which means they come out with a bit more health but then Lapras can also steam roll multiple nites so it's all about using the right mon for the job.

Most of my experience with the grass types are as prestiging mon and a good set Jumpluff will take a Rhydon (avoid SE) even 1500+ CP difference.

But the gym rebalance is coming so all this is potentially going into the garbage soon

Piloswine with IS/B or A hits also very hard, unfortunately vaporeon destroys it. Would be funny if it could learn leaf blade

If I put any of your REAL tier 2 defenders in a gym right now, they would be shaved in less than a day. Lots of people can only get coins by placing mons with higher CP than cheaters' Blisseys. Defending is about getting coins, so pokemon that earn so many coins for trainers in cities should not be left out of a defender list

Everyone has adjustments to the GP tier lists based on their regional needs. To make a blanket statement that a personal criteria should be all-encompassing is a bit pretentious and short-sighted.

I find the GP defenders list to be very accurate, but not perfect based on my personal region. Here in Tampa, Florida everyone has a decent Heracross. That changes the meta here a little. Many other small specifics can change the list too.

remember that GP is trying to make an all-encompassing list that generally reflects the current meta, though it's almost always different from player to player.

That said, the GP tier lists, like or not, have a lot of respect and support in the pogo community. Sometimes they even expose some strategies that I might not have considered previously.

I'm just fine with the GP list and would still consider it the most realistic list out there.

I like this question and the results you have come up with so far. Here are my suggested additions:

For sure:
- Steelix
- Muk

Possibly:
- Clefable (Charge Beam/Dazzling Gleam)
- Miltank
- Ursaring
- Heracross
- Umbreon

I just want to say that Pokemnons with double weakness such as Rhydon or Gyarados, wich are really easy to take down by a basic enemy tipes (water, grass and electric) shoulnd't be placed that high on the rank unless they have a really crazy stats resulting on a crazy CP.

Yes they have a very high CP now, but I think they would need to have higher to be placed there.

Actually is so easy to go around with Vaporeons and Jolteons and take down 3k+ CP Rhydons or Gyarados. Not just one but two (with the same attacker), and with low level attackers (Don't even need more than 2k CP on Jpolteon and Vape). Not to mention that if denders don't have a proper move set it will even be easier.

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