Lets talk Gengar
This is a comprehensive comparison of this famous Mewtwo counters durability, compared to some other candidates.
A 100% maxed out Gengar survives 3 confusions from Mewtwo. It dies on the fourth. In windy weather, it survives two, dying on the third. I am not factoring in charge moves here since Gengar won't last long enough to see them.
What it takes to kill some other pokemon that have high DPS against Mewtwo;
Tyranitar (Good durability, double resistance to confusion.) 19 confusions. 16 in windy weather.
Tyranitar cannot survive a mewtwo boss focus blast. Against any other Mewtwo boss Tyranitar will last about four times longer than Gengar.
Rayquaza/Salamance/Moltres (average durability.) 8 confusions, 7 in windy weather.
Dragonite (above average durability.) 9 confusions. 8 in windy weather.
The dragons won't survive a mewtwo boss psychic or ice beam if they've been hit/get hit by two or three confusions. In this scenario their frailty becomes on par with Gengar. Otherwise they'll survive about twice as long as Gengar give or take.
If Moltres is hit by psychic or thunderbolt it can survive up to three more confusions, putting its durability on par with Gengar. Otherwise its durability is similar to the dragons.
Mewtwo; (above average durability, resistant to confusion.) 12 confusions, 10 in windy weather
Mewtwo can survive at least 5 hits from confusion before/after being hit with any boss Mewtwo charge move. It will last at least twice as long as Gengar against any Mewtwo boss.
The following frail counters can take more confusions than Gengar but are unlikely to survive any mewtwo charge move. So their durability depends on when Boss mewtwo fires it.
Scizor (below average durability, resistant to confusion.) 9 confusions, 8 in windy weather.
Houndoom (poor durability, double resistance to confusion.) 11 confusions, 10 in windy weather.
Absol (abysmal durability, double resistance to confusion.) 7 confusions, 6 in windy weather
Sharpedo (lol. Double resistance to confusion.) 6 confusions, 5 in windy weather.
Yes, that is correct. Sharpedo lasts longer against Mewtwo than Gengar.
Answers
I focus on confusion here ;)
With Psycho cut Gengar will survive till the first charge move, at which point the boss will usually get Gengar out of there.
In this case it's durability matches sharpedo (which can only really survive flamethrower) and tyranitars when the latter is faced with focus blast.
It is worth noting though that Gengar will survive a focus blast. So if you have a psycho cut/focus blast mewtwo (one in ten chance) Gengar suddenly becomes the best counter.
Gengar shines when M2 has Psycho Cut/Focus Blast, especially when there is a huge group of players raiding together. With many players raiding together, M2 gains energy quickly so it might use a FB after just a few PC. A FB can kill all Dark counters but Gengar's triple resistance can help it survive that. What's more, with the energy gain from the FB, a high level SC Gengar is able to outlet at 2 Shadow Balls, which boosts its DPS dramatically. This will help you earn 1 or 2 extra balls because of the huge raiding team.
Could follow your reasoning very well until you said "help you earn 1 or 2 extra balls"
Absolute crap, nothing can make significant difference when it comes to large (12-20) groups. Simple reasoning by mathematical facts.
Dont take it personal tho, just trying to be explicit so people won't buy that last statement.
Gengar's frailty is the reason I found Shadow claw over hyped and underperforming, (and before anyone says anything yes I've used one and its garbage, newly evolved hex users are better because it can actually get more damage from reliably hitting bulk points from beign able to get better IV ones and more energy gain for shadow ball)Always had better use with other counters
This is a very good analysis, assuming worsted case senario and planning for it would yield better results agaisnt the easier Psycho cut.
Tl;dr -> Gengar is imo not worth the investment if not meant for 3 star raids.
Great post, something I've been missing out on lately.
Since the title makes clear we are talking about Gengar, I'll explicitly talk about him.
People have always been hyping the performances of Gengar but I've always questioned how really valuable this Pokemon is in raids.
Let me first start about 3-star raids. To me, without a doubt, king of 3 star raids in certain match ups. If you like a challange yourself and like to solo 3-star raids, sure, go ahead. Gengar will be one of your best investments.
Talking about 4 or 5 star raids. Gengar faints so quickly I have always wondered how much it really benefits towards the entire picture. It costs recourses to revive the animal and I dont think it really does that significant more damage than, e.g., Tyranitar.
Conclusion: in my opinion, not worth the investment if it's not meant to solo raids.
"I am not factoring in charge moves here since Gengar won't last long enough to see them."
This is more of a nitpick since it doesn't really change the point of your post, but: Gengar actually has a fair chance of living to the first charge move and dying to it instead of the 4th Confusion. 3 Confusions and taking some damage breaks 50 energy, so it's up to the boss AI RNG to decide which one to use to kill Gengar. This 3 Confusions to 50 energy is easily noticeable by fighting a Dragonite with a C/DG Gardevoir or challenging C/SB Alakazam a few times.
Yes, Gengar is in disadvantage against confusion. But it still can survive 3 confusion and use one SB in enough cases. The damage that gengar inflicted when survived put him above the other counters. It's not only about durability, but contribution to take down the boss.
Your analysis is illustrative and brings people to reality. It reminds us what a glass cannon means. If you opt for using gengar in every situation your will have to re-enter more often and your stock of revives will drop drastically. In some cases, such as confusion, your contribution to the raid may be inconsistent if you don't get to use one charged move. However leading with gengar is still quite safe.
It might be my lack of English knowledge that causes to misinterpret your last sentence. That being said, if leading means start with Gengar, I disagree. The raid boss will kick of with two initial quick moves which might damage Gengar significantly. Therefore, I would like to argue to have Gengar in a later positioning. In line with what gamepress advices.
I'm not English native either. Yes, that's what I meant. I may be wrong with this, but I believed that starting with gengar is the safest way of ensuring one shadow ball. 2 quick moves at the start + one more and you should have charged SB, shoot and faint in the next fast attack. In any other position you have high chances of getting hit by one of Mewtwo's charged moves and not being able to charge a single SB in your gengar.
I always use a team of Gengars to start a Mewtwo raid. Yes Confusion tears it to shreds, but it’s only 6 revives and 6 hyper potions, which I have plenty of. And only two of my Gengar have SC. With SC and Sucker Punch (the suggestion on here to use SP vs Hex really helped) dodging is easy, and I have taken Mewtwo down with 4 many, many times that’s it’s not even a question. If Mewtwo has PC and not Psychic, I heal my Gengar team and use it for the second round.
It’s actully fun battling Focus Blast Mewtwo now. I used to think that was the hardest charge move to face.With Gengar, it makes it the easiest. Even if it has Confusion, it can be dodged, and I smile watching all the Ttars around me falling down while my Gengar lasts. And I always get damage balls.
I don’t like doing big groups with raids. Where I am, you have to wait, and wait, and wait for everyone, then back out because someone doesn’t have signal, then back out because someone just showed up. I prefer 4-5 people in a raid, it makes it more of a challenge. And when everyone relies on Ttar, it great to be the one holding the team when there is a Focus Blast Mewtwo.
Everyone raids their own way, so use what you want. I just can’t believe when I hear that people have trouble taking it down with 8, when it’s easy to do with 4. The DPS charts should tell you what to use against what.
Using glass canon is about preference, you like it or hate it...
The Gengar that i use is good enough in 4-5 maning Mewtwo when i play with fellow trainer in my weekend area that ready to do it
As a weekday, i play with small group because we dont have a choice. Only 10 member in the group, and mostly cannot gather all member when legendaries raid spawn, 5-6 trainer is the norm. Only have 2 strong trainer, 2 decent, the rest is casual. That four trainer must carry the other so dps is the priority.
Myself dont get all crazy with Gengar, only use 3 and 3 mewtwos. Backing up with all Tyranitar squad. Level of the counter between 34-40
As for revive and potion, right now i prefer to use it than have to trash it, so more fainted pokemons is good for me..
I’ve done a total of 16 Mewtwo raids since its release in normal raids. I got a Shadow Claw Gengar the day before and took it to level 35, and I’ve been leading with it each raid except maybe two where I didn’t revive.
Against weather boosted confusion I would get one Shadow Ball off before fainting
Against non-weather boosted confusion I would get at least 2-3 Shadow Ball. It’s really easy to dodge with Shadow Claw and it gains energy fairly quickly with the energy gained from being hit, I generally faint when hit with a charge move rather than a third or fourth confusion.
And then of course there’s Psycho Cut, where I could get more Shadow Ball off.
I’ve also been raiding with a small group of people (1-3) I’m ultra friends with and various others who show up to the raids and my team pretty much always gets the team contribution balls and I always get at least one extra ball for damage.
It’s very frail, but it can still deal a chunk of damage before fainting. I definitely won’t use it on any weather boosted again, though.
Here's the real question: will your team faint out?
If you have little to no risk of fainting out (full lobby) use all your glass cannons because you'll do the most damage.
Will your team definitely faint out (short man/casual raiders alongside you)? Use your glass cannons first to maximize damage, but then use a bulkier B team so you don't faint twice. Fainting twice will wreck your dps.
Is it borderline? Then you should build a team that maximizes damage without fainting. My default team is Mewtwo, Gengar x2, Tyranitar x3 for this reason. I don't like leading with Gengar because the double confusion to start is brutal. I'd rather risk coming into a psychic or some other move.
Bottom line is this: Gengar definitely has a place, but use sparingly or you lose the time advantage you gain with the massive DPS.
Just to rebound about Houndoom here: I wouldn't say "poor durability" (unless you meant "against neutral or SE damage attacks"). Houndoom resists ice beam and flamethrower, double resists psychic and double resists the two fast moves, which brings in handy resistances against more than half Mewtwos. Used it this weekend in 2 windy raids: it died the first time at the second ice beam (I didn't dodge) and on the second raid it survived 2 flamethrowers (still not dodged) and then some fast moves. I have 1 in my A team and 2 suboptimal in my B team, quite handy fellas.
