My love for Magikarp is no secret on this forum.
For two generations, Gyarados was inferior to Vaporeon. Two months after Waterfall made Gyarados great again, Kyogre was released. Even a maxed Gyarados has lower DPS and TDO than a level 30 Kyogre.
With Totodile Community Day is around the corner, Feraligatr with Hydro Cannon is expected to surpass Gyarados in DPS (their neutral TDO is roughly equal), while Swampert with Hydro Cannon will completely outclass Gyarados.
The main advantages that Gyarados has are:
1. Magikarp candy is easy to earn.
2. Kyogre cannot defend gyms, while Feraligatr and Swampert are not expected to be good gym defenders even with Hydro Cannon.
3. Doubly resisting Ground gives Gyarados amazing TDO in some matchups.
My question is about the third point. How many such relevant matchups are there? The most obvious one is Groudon, where Gyarados also benefits from not being weak to Solar Beam. Rhydon and Rhyperior in gyms are more likely to carry Stone Edge (which hurts Gyarados hard) than Earthquake. How about legendaries in future generations?
if what you care about is legendaries, gyarados is unfortunately going to be totally outclassed. the only ground-type legendary pokemon outside of groudon are landorus and zygarde. both of those are doubly-weak to ice, so gyarados will be a suboptimal matchup, and zygarde isn't weak to water.
that said, if primal groudon becomes a raid boss, it will be doubly weak to water, so gyarados may find use there for TDO.
There is one gound legendary weak to water, Landorus. However, landorus is ground/Flying, so it has a double weakness to ice, and mamoswine is quite fantastic.
Other than that theres Zygarde which is part dragon, so water's not good against it, and is double weak to ice as well.
Swampert with hydro cannon, and to an extent Feraligatr wont outclass Gyrados as a groudon counter, swamper's double weak to solar beam and Feraligatr's just normally weak, while gyarados is neutral. Its a much more reliable option. Currently in PvP, pokemon like Flygon and Groudon, and even metagross carry ground moves, which Gyarados is MUCH better at handling due to massive resistance.
Gym wise, better than the other water types as it resists both metagross and machamp, a claim few viable pokemon can match, making it a very effective defender before raids (most gym teams are at least 50% those two)
However thats all assuming two things, one; the feraligatr and Swampert are the same level as Gyarados. In reality, they arent. Most players have numerous high level gyarados (I started last febuary, and have 3 maxed out) while our feraligatr and swampert are currently still their first stage, and likely not high level, so gyarados will still be great for a long time as people will need A LOT of candy and dust to power the up. and two; relevance. As we saw with Rhyperior, and see with Scizor, a pokemon can be the best attacker of its type, but unless that type gets a very relevant match up(such as a legendary raid, or very valuable t3/4) its inconsequential. Even if those 2 water types pass up gyarados, if theres no raid boss to use them against, it doesnt matter, gyarados will still be the better defender and PvP mon, giving it an alternative use and reason to have that the other 2 lack. Also without relevant match ups, it'd be hard to justify all the stardust to power up the water starters unless we get groudon after them
Gyarados isnt going anywhere, it was great when it got water fall, still best nonlegendary water type, and is more than a "hit stuff" pokemon (what I refer to as pokemon only good for raids) unlike the water starters. Another thing to consider is meta evolution. Personally, im not a big proponent of this anymore(at least in the form people want/think it will be), as mega's being their own thing with no limit would be busted, but Gyarados has a mega. Swampert does as well, but with the current CP on the max CP for all pokemon, mega Gyarados has about 400 up on mega swampert, as well as not having a double weakness (M-gyara is dark/water). I wouldn't have the mega consideration be the SOLE factor, but added in with the other factors gyarados has going for It, it's still going to be great even without the mega, and i'd gladly take a gyrados over a swampert or feraligatr.
Massive sidenote about Primal groudon, its ground/fire, so double weak to water. That's a huge point in gyrados's favor as gyrados possesses more natural bulk than the others, when considering ground moves, and Groudon's stats, the starts might not get off more than one or 2 HC's, while gyrados can tank those ground hits like a friggen' champ, and get off loads more hydropump (lasting roughly 2.5 times longer than feraligatr agaisnt double ground sets). Agaisnt solarbeam, RIP Swampert and gatr.
As for kyogre, when a nonlegendary's only competition is a legendary (especially one with a signature move thats unreleased and in the game code) i'd hardly say thats a point against Gyarados. It actually makes more want to use gyarados more, as RC's a lot more precious.
"Unless that type gets a very relevant match up" is the key issue for Gyarados, at least for gym offence and raids. Thanks for reminding me that I will see Groudon regularly in Master League and Gyarados also walls Metagross with Earthquake as a second charged move. If PvP becomes more important, it would be a good second reason to max out my 98% (of course, gym defence is the first reason).
Since I have not played the later-generation console games, I know little about Mega and Primal forms, so that was helpful.
Its a great PvP pokemon. im in the process of maxing my 100% gyrados, (seriously found the li'l fish as a level 1 wild karp). Gym defense is also great, theres a lot of pokemon that have rose to prominence simply because they walled the best attacker; gardevoir, togekiss, gyarados itself, dragonite, metagross, etc.
Personally, I dislike megas and everything they stand for in the main series, but in a game like GO, I feel they're more fitting, since this is a game that is all about pure stats unlike the main series where its about building a team of poemon you like, not just carrying a pokemon because its stupid powerful.
Will gyarados become les useful as a raid attacker, most likely. (now dont take this next part in the wrong direction, just hear me out first) But thats the same thing that will happen to most water types. Feraligatr will get passed by swampert, swampert possibly by greninja, greninja by Primarina, and all water types surpassed by Origin pulse kyogre. However most of that is kinda moot, water isnt a type that covered a lot of legendaries.
Of the legendaries weak to water theres: Groudon (+primal), Moltres, Ho-oh, Entei, heatran, Terrakion, Landorus.
EDIT: Was reminded of Regirock, though this doesnt change anything as metagross is better agaisnt it than anything else, after that there is machamp.
Most of them arent countered best by water DPS wise anyway, the only ones being Primal groudon and entei. The others have secondary types that add bigger weaknesses (either double ones, or for terrakion, a weaknesses to higher DPS pokemon, weak to MM metagross, though Origin pulse may change that)
If including ultra beasts, theres Blascephalon, Stakataka and Nihilego, but the last two share a double weakness to ground and stakata's double weakness to fighting. Blascephalon's ghost/fire typing gives...a lot of weaknesses, think of A-wak but less defense and more attack.
There isnt much in the way of legendary raids for water types to be the best against to begin with.
I agree, if PvP becomes more important (I feel it will, niantic will find some way to make more money on it) Gyarados could be one of the best options for masters.
"Personally, I dislike megas and everything they stand for in the main series..."
Hey me too!! It's nice to meet someone with the same feelings on Megas. I dislike how they affected the meta and like 99% of the designs just don't do it for me. That being said I wouldn't mind seeing them in Go. It'll make some useless mons like Lopunny or Manetric have some worth.
I may be in the minority, but I hope that no new Megas are created in the future.
For me, its that mega's are completely against the main theme of the series, and it makes the line, "Strong pokemon, weak pokemon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites." completly worthless.
that and it destroyed the game, removing most all elements of strategy and planning in favor of just hit a button to gain massive stats/abilities that broke the game. Agree, designs suck, aside from mega tyranitar because its based on spacegodzilla, which makes sense and ampharos, because ampharos was originally supposed to be part dragon. Though mega metagross....hate that thing, original was perfect
I’m not alone OoO
Personally I agree, and to put the point further, pokemon that actually NEED the mega evolutions such as Flygon, didn’t get anything. It was only given to Pokémon that didn’t need it, like starters and pseudo legendary Pokémon. Oh hec, MEWTWO Get TWO megas! Let’s just destroy the game meta.
STRATAGY? Pfft, let’s go MEGA!
If I remember correct running future raids sims on pokebattler gyarados was not a counter that is good enough to be viable to be an investment.
But I actually think it is a good pvp: waterfall+ outrage/crunch.
Cheap to get an extra move and resists common counters.
Only rock and electric weakness and except for tyranitar with SD that WF can handle you are OK it’s pretty good.
I've wanted to like Gary, I really did, but as time passes it becomes harder and harder.
My main beef with him is that imo his flying type is more of a liability than an asset. Yes it removes his weakness to grass but it gives him a weakness to rock (which water is supposed to counter), a crippling double weakness to electric and removes his ice resistance
Another big problem is that in Go lots of Ground pokemon have the option to pack Rock moves and vice versa
I'd pick Kyogre over him. Not because of Kyogre's stats, but because it can run waterfall + hydro pump too, doesn't have a type disadvantage and can pack blizzard as a great backup option
