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How good will palkia and dialga be + a little analysis

with groudon and kyogre coming to an end soon, and both dialga and palkia being the best of the most likely possible 6 new legendaries (of those two, regigigas and that lake trio) which of the two seems like they will be better?
Ive got a list of a few pro's and con's each have, which do you think outweighs the other (not actual weight, thats clearly dialga) but as attackers, specifically dragon wise, because i'm having a hard time picking, especially if the do what they did with groudon and kyogre and have both out at the same time, it will be hard to pick which to focus raiding. This is both for PvP/raids separately

Dialga:
Pro's:
-only dragon not weak to dragon (so it mega altaria, but we dont know how megas will work/if at all)
-much more natural bulk than present rayquaza and palka, also more meaningful resistances than rayquaza generally
-only weaknesses are ground and fighting for PvP
-resists Tyranitar and metagross in materleague PvP, as well as ancient power giratina, neutral to dragon moves, thunder hits metagross for neutral damage

Cons:
-statistcally inferior optimal moveset of dragon breath/DM for raids, unknown how this combo will do for PvP
-has a lower attack stat than both ray and Palkia
-steel subtyping finds little use on offense with MM metagross existing
-thunder not much use outside of metagross match ups in pvp
-Not a good coutner to itself in raids

Palkia
Pro's:
-optimal set Dragon breath/draco meteor has close preformance to present salamence
-naturally bulker than rayquaza and salamence, complementing the 1 bar nature of draco meteor, may preform better in practice than salamence
-water subtyping finds use against some lower level raids, better tank counter to firetypes than kyogre with good DPS, and perhaps best coutner itself with HP/FB in raids
-Dragon breath is one of the best PvP fast moves, and HP allows it to deal neutral damage to metagross while also hitting Groudon and tyranitar super effective, dragon moves allow it to win matches against other water types

Cons:
-Lack of water fast move limits use as a water part-timer
-weak to the dragons it is meant to counter
-Rayquaza posses superior attack and moveset, but both pokemons type combinations can help or hurt in certain match ups

I kinda like how we dont have one easily seeable best between the two sinnoh dragons, and even while at the same level, rayquaza does best their DPS, they do naturally out tank it while still providing very high DPS. Dialga is notably slower, much like present double dark tyranitar, it more than makes up for that in both type combination and bulk.

Now this isnt to say that one of these is good, and the others will be bad, both rayquaza and these two will be fantastic dragon attackers, a relationship not that dissimilar to the old Haryama/machamp one, or present Weavile and Tyranitar for the sinnoh dragons. But it seems that, for now at least, rayquaza holds the seat as the best, and Dialga and palkia reside somewhere slightly below it, but depending on match ups, maybe better than Rayquaza and eachother. Now if eventually both get their signature moves, roar of time and spatial rend, they will more than likely completely eclipse rayquaza, but as we have had only one pokemon with their signature move, Deoxys released, and mewtwo's Psystrike is yet to be let out, I think we can assume these moves will be a long time away.

If both come out at the same time, it will be a hard pick which to focus on, as I dont have 100+ stored passes.

Asked by MetagrossMaxis6 years 3 months ago

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Answers

Honestly with the way eggs work, would just show up at hatch and do whichever it is.

However, they won't likely come together. I don't think any legendary has its initial release shared.

You forgot the initial Legendaries release: Lugia and Articuno together all over the world.

There were also migrating beasts, but that's different.

Both of them are likely going to be monsters in PvP with dragon breath as a quick move. Each has very few weaknesses, crazy stats, and interesting moves (though all of Palkia's are slow one-bar moves). I could easily see them becoming dominant forces in the master league.

I don't think they'll come at the same time they're both important box legends that deserve a month each.

Both of them will be monsters in PvP. Like you said, their moves + bulk will be incredible. For raids, they'll see some use too. Their dragon dps, may not be higher than Rayquaza, but their bulk will be very valuable. In the future, Palkia and Dialga will be competing each other for best Dragon type. Palkia with Spacial Rend will probably be highest dragon dps, while Diagla with Roar of Time will be lower, but its steel typing will be a big advantage.

Well, Palkia will only be a novelty for the Master League. Remember Kingdra?

Dialga is another story, interesting addition to meta on all levels.

Hmm? What happened with Kingdra? I only really remember something being said about how it wasn't bulky enough. Was there something else?

Kingdra is your Water Dragon of choice for Great and Ultra. It could be bulkier, but is powerfull still.

Palkia doesn't bring anything interesting to the table. Also, has way worse stat distribution for the CP-capped leagues.

I hope both dont come at the same time. Groudon has only been out with kyogre for me, I never saw it on its own and always heard both were released at the same time, a few people said it was a dumb move on niantic part to do, but as I want around playing then, I cant verify.

I was somewhat worried niantic might do the same thing, I hope they release both separately, but I like planning for a worse case in the event it does, however unlikely it is.

Dialga and palkia taking top dragon spot is something I definitely are will happen, Rayquaza is good, and likely will last for a long time, but it is a glass cannon in stats mainseries wise, and the 9% nerf didnt help that. The other two have similar offensive stats but better bulk and type combinations. It will remain dominant for a while, but much like Garchomp will do to dragonite, they will eventually over take ray, though we wouldn't have been able to get as far without them. Dialga's steel type I think might make it the favorite pick, similar to how I know a lot of people prefer dragonite over salamence or tyranitar over weavile, the extra bulk helps

now if mega rayquaza happens....thats not going to a hard pick, atk deoxys attack level attack with the bulk to actually use it.

If they do add megas, they will probably nerf them as well. The nerf will likely be higher than 9%. It really should be because holy damn, some megas are just insane lol!

I've theorized that stamina will remain the same value as the base Pokemon in question while some of the more obscene ones like Mega Mewtwo Y could see an 18% cut to the other two base stats.

Niantic has to realize that if megas are added, theres be little reason to use anything else if there isnt some hinderance.

the mot extreme example is M-rayquaza who has, for rough estimate in go, the same attack stat for all intents and purposes at atk forme deoxys. We see how high its neutral DPS on the spreadsheet it. Now, this is an absolute EXTREME low ball here, apply that DPS for M-ray, but roughly multiple the tdo by 8 (rough approximation of the bulk m-ray has over atk deoxys) that is lowballing it. In rality the DPS would FAR exceed that number because rayquaza gets not only better moves DT/OR is one of the best offensive combos, but STAB on those moves, so the DPS would be greatly in excess of that rough estimate.

Now that would mean almost nothing could ever hope to compete with mega ray for DPS in most settings because of the shear stats. Similar massive DPS with absurd TDO applied for groudon, kyogre and both mega mewtwo's, mega X would likely take all fighting types with the possible exception of m blaziken out of the running because of an insane attack stat plus STAB FB, and the Y with its absurd attack stat and shadow ball or even just psychic. Niantic must know if these are added, once you get even 1, theres little reason to use anything else in the majority of situations, a nerf, and a beyond sizable one is something that should be expected. And that's rough projections not factoring in STAB and the better moves ray has but having the 9% nerf,

To say this is insane is an understatement.

There's actually a pretty easy nerfing approach: in the games, Mega evolution stay until the Pokemon faints or battle ends.

Which means that if the cost of Mega-evolving is high enough (special rare items, candy, startdust, you name it), Mega usage would be limited only to those very special occasions that you absolutely need it to prevail.

Also, in the games, you are able to Mega-evolve only one Pokemon, so that limit is also likely in Go.

Dialga may indeed be a monster in raids, master, and ultra leagues (thanks to his incredibly narrow weaknesses due to unique typing) combined with access to a two bar charge move in iron head.
Palkia might make some waves in master league PvP, but in ultra he's outclassed by Kingdra both thanks to stat distribution and available move pool (outrage is better for PvP than DM). For raids... Palkia might be ok? He'll be outclassed as a water attacker by Kyogre and eventually Hydro Cannon Swampert (who will even dethrone kyogre), and outclassed as a dragon attacker by both RayQ and Dialga (the former thanks to DPS advantage, the later due to vastly superior bulk).

Of course this could all change with CD moves, but RayQ still has Sky Ascent coming as well... so maybe it won't change?

Palkia will be very good in dragon raids. It's dps is similar to Salamence, but Palkia has the bulk where Salamence does not. Dialga on the otherhand, has a much lower dps. Niantic probably gave DB/DM as a means of "nerfing" it since it will be far and away best counter against dragons due to its typing. Both will be good regardless.

Rayray's Dragon Ascent is a flying type move not dragon so it really cannot get any better in that department since it already has DT/Outrage. I really wanted Palkia to be a good water type alongside Kyogre but sadly it doesn't learn any fast water moves that are currently in the game. Maybe if Dive or Liquidation gets added as a fast move one day. Even though Palkia doesn't have a fast water, its water dps is still really high. I think it's dps with DT/HP is 17.29 compared to Kyogre with Waterfall/HP 15.91, very good! Obviously, against raid bosses weak to water Kyogre's neutral dps will be higher than the 15.91 but P's dragon typing will really help it against certain raids so that's pretty fun.

Also hydrocannon swampert doesnt dethrone kyogre. Best I saw of it was it gets close in most cases, and the one case that it does out DPS kyogre is solar beam groudon, a set you'd never want to use swampert or even kyogre against, so kyogre is quite safe.

Dragon ascent is a flying move, so ray as a dragon attacker cannot be improved unless new moves are added, while the same does apply for dialga and palkia, they had dragon signature moves that would merit this

Kyogre does fine against SB Groudon - it'll hit at least one hydro pump off first, two if Groudon is being lazy.

In my experience getting off one isn't guaranteed (I had starting Kyogre die in a 4-man just yesterday before connecting with HP) and to get off two Groudon would have to be extremely lazy, like skipping the charge move 5-6 times in a row.

Definitely not true: I have a level 40 Kyogre with 14A/14HP/15D, and it has died twice in the leading position to Solar Beam Groudon before getting off a Hydro Pump.

Likewise I have a level 38.5 Kyogre with 87% 15 attack (so a lot weaker defensively, but still very strong) and it also died in the 2nd position to both of those Groudons before getting off a Hydro Pump as well. So your "will" has been 0/4 for me.

There's too much money to be made in them to be released together, I'd be surprised if they were. That said, I'd raid the pants off of either of them. Ultimately I'd like to have one of each maxed. Their typings offer a wide array or resistances not commonly seen among the top-tier dragon types. Even if they're not the fastest attackers they'll still leave sizeable holes in most match ups.

Rayquaza suffers from the problem of stat distribution going all in on offense, while this affords it its immense DPS in raids, it contributed to its frailty. Its a double edged sword. Even without the type combination. Mainseries wise its got a base stat total of 680 (BST) but 300 of those points are purely offense, 150 in both attack and special attack. Dialga and palkia have the same BST, but only 270 points in offense, 150 special, 120 physical, those extra 30 being in bulk helping very substantially, even In the main series. In the conversion to GO, it still gives the sinnoh dragons that extra bulk with minimal attack difference compared to ray. Had both gotten DT/OR, dialga would have taken the dragon crown hands down, outputting near the same DPS, but so much more tankiness, an even without that, they'll still be absolute powerhouses.

It will be fun to see how dialga fairs against giratina