Gym Attackers Tier List
So, here it is. Honestly, I have never questioned gamepress opinions, it always felt really reasonable, objective, factual. Just spot on. But this tier... Why on earth is Vaporeon tier 1,5 while Gyarados 3? Even after factoring vap's higher tankiness in, Gyara has higher base ATK, which alone results in more or less the same total damage done before fainting, not to mention higher dps and eps quick move. So having similar total dmg before fainting Gyara does it faster, is more potion efficient, more versatile, better in the dragonite matchup, and COOLER - he's not a retarded hamster that ruins this game completely and negates any sense whatsoever of grinding anything except eevees. And if the tankiness is such a big factor in this list, then why is Snorlax below Vape? He's MUCH tankier than Vape and difference in dmg compared to Vape is similar to the difference in Vape vs Gyara comparison. I can not find any reasonable argument for at least one of the aformentioned Gamperess decisions.
Then again Flareon and Charizard are tier 2,5 while Arcanine tier 3. I realize FS+OH is very strong moveset right now, but from what I've noticed people usually agree that E+OH, although worse than FS+OH, is great as well. Now, E+OH is basicly the same as FF+FB in terms of damage (also FF is easier to dodge with), and Arcanine is significantly tankier than Charizard. The tankiness, which made my most hated Vaposhiteon rise up to the tier 1,5 is now a FLAW, which causes Arcanine to fall down half a tier? Where's the consequence?
165 base ATK. Sounds absurdly low, doesn't it? It's actually value that is VERY close to base ATK of a Raticate. Or pidgeot. Or parasect. Or butterfree. Oh sorry, butterfree has higher base ATK. So does arbok. And dugtrio. We're talking about prestiger's attack value here. Seriously? Lapras (that's his base ATK value if you haven't guessed already) is tier 2? Does it even tickle those Dragonites? Because lets be serious, he's awfully useless except for that matchup. Overwhelmingly low atk (time, precious time...), horrible potion efficiency, not really dodge-friendly (FB animation is so confusing), very rare to obtain overgrown turtle is tier 2? Ex equo with Snorlax, Heracross, Exeggutor? I appreciate the hard work done by people creating this site, I really do. I have always come and I will come here to check the movests, newest datamine, etc. But this list is so horrible to me, that I can not really express it. I obviously may be all wrong, but as far as my experience (and actually raw numbers as well) goes, I can not be disagreeing with it more...
Answers
What I found most surprising was the number of inconsistencies between movesets listed as optimal in the Gym Attackers Tier List compared with the A-rated movesets in the Pokemon List.
Also, with GamePress saying the moveset ratings have been completed when in fact they haven't been, I am getting worried about how much to trust the site's moveset analyses. I am not trying to be petty; just being honest.
A couple of things.
First, we're short on space in the tier list graphic and can't list everything if there are a ton of options.
Second, in the tier list, we consider a Pokemon's purpose in the metagame and only list the relevant sets. So while Lapras also has WG + HP listed as an A rated moveset (it is by DPS standards), Lapras is only tier 2 by virtue of its prowess against Dragonite, so it would make no sense to list the double-water set on the tier list.
That's a great explanation and I thank you for it. I think it would be helpful if you included a version of it on the Gym Attackers Tier List page for clarification to avoid other readers having similar concerns.
Likewise, GamePress should address the issue of moveset ratings that have not been updated on the Pokemon List.
Again, I thank you for your taking the time to respond to my concern with the Gym Attackers Tier List.
I've been a head admin from a FPS for a couple years now and most of the players will always skip the parts that serve as explanation and go straight to the results.
The only option worthwhile is to include a link to a different post for the interested readers. Could be time consuming, so don't bother if it is not in your interest.
dondon151,
As per the Grades Explanation page, move sets are graded mainly based on DPS. To a lesser extent, ease of dodging is also considered.
Under such grading criteria, could you briefly explain why is Dragon Breath + Dragon Claw ranked above move sets such as Dragon Tail + Hyper Beam & Steel Wing + Outrage. It seems to contradict the grading methodology mentioned above.
Thanks.
I have some serious issues with YOUR analysis, but I will stick with the most obvious, IMO: which defenders are most commonly found in gyms? OK... and which attackers are most effective against them?
Right. So maybe so many Vape's are why Exe is so high... maybe a Vape, with double STAB moves and high HP against Rhyhorn, with a double water weakness, is MUCH better than Gary or Snorlax in matchups that actually EXIST in most gyms. Maybe Lapras is so high BECAUSE Dragonites are so common in gyms. Maybe all those higher/same attack mons you mention are ranked so low because optimal matchups for them don't actually exist because mons weak to normal and poison and bug aren't found in gyms AT ALL.
Mons strong against Rhyhorns, Dragonites, Snorlaxes, Blisseys, Vapes, Garys and Tyranitar are what are used in the gym scene. Key attackers into those high-CP defenders will outrank your Butterfree any day of the week. Period.
Besided this Vap is also flat out better also in theory, att x def x sta x damage is better than gya. Only wp vap is a bit under the 3 hp gya. Ser this both on pokebattler vharts and on various spreadsheets.
And Lapras, inspite nerf, is high up, on neutral demege right below hp gya and anove rest of the gya. Just need to document, read the creator explanations and one will get it :).
Hi, tier list creator here.
If this list is so horrible to you, then you're welcome to ignore its suggestions. I think it is fine to question our tier lists because we have to account for all playstyles and every player should make conclusions for themselves. Your complaints deserve an explanation, so here is an explanation.
What has become clear to me is that Gyarados is very very overrated by most players as an attacker. You can cite DPS, EPS, attack stat, etc. all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Vaporeon wins its ideal matchups faster than Gyarados. Vaporeon beats Rhydon and Tyranitar faster and with substantially more % HP remaining.
As a Dragonite "counter," Gyarados is also deficient. First, Gyarados doesn't win this matchup without dodging. Very few Pokemon win this matchup without dodging, and Lapras is one of them. This makes Lapras an optimal attacker into Dragonite. Second, Gyarados is worse than Cloyster or Jynx at attacking into Dragonite. With dodging, the ice-types win this matchup faster with similar % HP remaining. Third, a better option to attack defender Dragonite with is your own Dragonite. You win something like 6 seconds faster and take slightly less % HP damage.
So this completes the picture of Gyarados being an extremely overrated attacker. It has no matchups in which it is even close to being ideal, and as a generalist, it's much worse than either Dragonite or Tyranitar.
This also addresses your qualms with Lapras, who is in tier 2 almost strictly because of the Dragonite matchup, and Vaporeon, who is ranked above Snorlax because of having ideal matchups. Snorlax isn't really good against anything; it's a good option if you can't dodge or if your phone/game won't let you.
Now regarding Flareon and Charizard vs. Arcanine. Arcanine is substantially worse than either of the tier 2 fire types now that they have access to Fire Spin and Overheat. In the Exeggutor matchup, Arcanine wins over 3 seconds slower than Charizard and takes a lot more % HP damage. Flareon and Charizard performed similarly (Flareon slightly faster, Charizard slightly bulkier), but they both left Arcanine in the dust.
By the way, some people (more casual players) choose to use Flareon as a poverty attacker into Blissey because they have no better option. Flareon beats Blissey almost 10 seconds faster than Arcanine if both dodge specials.
Thank you very much for your time and answer. I know I can ignore the suggestions, but I would prefer to understand your reasoning. Like I said, I may be all wrong, that is why I made the topic, to "gather more intel". I can't really question facts and numbers you stated, so thanks again for sharing them, but the interpretation of some of them is still a little messy to me. Flareon is much faster than numbers may suggest, so battle lasts longer, so RK9 tankiness gets neglected, fine. For the lapras part - dragonites are not too common here, if there are elsewhere that is enough to value them so highly, thats also ok. What bothers me is Vape (and gyara). You mostly talked about vape best matchup, which made it almost look like he's a specialist attacker into Rhydon and Tyranitar to a lower extent. If so, why isn't he in the same tier as Lapras? And if he's higher for the added value of versatility, which lapras doesn't really have, why did gyara fell down so hard? Even if he's little slower vs Rhydon, he still is a better generalist than vape, so... Either gyara should be higher for he's generalist capabilities, or vape lower for the same reason, or both... Then again, vapes are as common in gyms as rhydons. Exeggutor is the best counter to vape, (like vape to rhydon) and he's more usefull outside this matchup. And he's half a tier lower? This vape hype is super weird to me.
The short answer is that Vaporeon is a specialist with tank and generalist properties while Gyarados is just a mediocre generalist.
Exeggutor is not tanky and the matchup numbers are not in its favor against most of the top defenders except for Vaporeon.
Arcanine's extra "tankiness" relative to Flareon and Charizard is irrelevant. Arcanine's defensive parameters aren't that much better, but more importantly, if you're winning matchups with less % HP remaining than supposedly less "tanky" Pokemon, then you're not really a tank.
After reading the new attacker list...
Its fine... But as an attacker player... ( I usually play at GYM than catching Pokes)
Why Eggs are in a low level Attacker? They are the most attacker I use vs Blissey / Snorlax... He hits hard and resist some of the best quick counter moves of Blissey and Snorlax with ZH... Machamp has trouble with this counter moves and a dragonite have difficulties with Dazzling Gleam of the Nurse...
Why my example as Blissey and Snorlax because they are the Best Tier Defender too...
Eggs must be above Lapras and Vapes... or Maybe same level with Tyrans...
P.S. You seldom see a fire defender/flying which is his weakness... He is most usable ATM due to the best defender's list...
Eggs is very efficient vs any Tier defender from 1 down to 3 (except dragonite)
IMO...
I would suggest my eggs makes it at least a half tier higher than the list suggests, and are part of my line up 99.9% of the time, and are probably the best 'generalist' in the current meta, outside of Dnite.
Next for me is the Vape...and the eggs win that battle too.
Very few opponents will make me switch out from my eggs, once they have entered the battle.
...but I think it is a solid guide that can be tailored to suit your own area.
