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Strictly in terms of nonlegendaries, we have 3 potential winners for gen IV, Mamoswine, Garchomp, and Rhyperior

Of the three which do you think will be the best/has the most potential, and do you think any of them will be able to rival groudon? (until precipice blades, but who knows how long that will be)

Rhyperior's got bulk, and if given mudslap/drill run, will be a powerhouse with bulk like tyranitar

Garchomp's a good pokemon, but as its most prominent ground move wont be too good (ie earthquake) its use may like elsewhere

Mamoswine may be similar, having a good ground set but an ice set outclassing it.

all of this could chance if earquake either gets a buff (which doesnt seem likely) or new ground moves are added

Asked by MetagrossMaxis6 years 8 months ago
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All of them have potential to be rockstars: they each got dedicated mentions in the Top 10 Gen 4 Pokemon guide. Comparing their best possible movesets with what's in the game, here's what we get compared to non-PB Groudon:

-------------------------------------------------- DPS ---------------- TDO
Groudon: Mud Shot/Earthquake ------- 13.867 ------------ 504.3
Rhypherior: Mud Slap/Drill Run -------- 13.641 ------------ 554.3
Mamoswine: Mud Slap/Earthquake --- 12.91 -------------- 362.1
Garchomp: Mud Slap/Dig ---------------- 13.635 ------------ 465.6

As seen, Rhypherior and Garchomp come neck and neck to Groudon - arguably, Rhypherior actually takes the ground type crown. This is entirely dependant on if Rhypherior is given Drill Run and Niantic doesn't default to throwing Earthquake on it like they do with every fully evolved ground type. If given Earthquake its DPS falls below Mamoswine, yes it still maintains higher TDO than Groudon.

This is all in a vacuum: Going up against an electric boss such as Raikou, Garchomp will be leagues ahead in the TDO department thanks to its dragon typing while sporting similar DPS, which actually doesn't vary much between Dig and Earthquake. Mamoswine falls short in the ground department, which may be for the best since it's better suited in its ice type role.

To answer the question asked, both Garchomp and Rhypherior stand to rival Groudon heavily, and in some cases may even usurp it given the right moves to do so.

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That helps me put myself at a bit of ease, because i've ben really raiding rhydon, and powering them up for this, even if given the wort possible moveset, Rhyperior will still be a powerhouse, though I do wonder how good or a rock type it will be if given rock wrecker
Being the first official pokemon, I could see Rhydon and its evolution getting something like a community day if its not in rhyperior's starting set

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Why? Every time there is a pokemon that could be game breaking, they give it a crappy moveset.

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Smack down tyranitar, bite crunch tyranitar, counter dynamic punch machamp, theres an infinite lsit of 'gamebreaking' sets that can be said, but thats excluding that ground is the worst type in the game (debatably tied with poison and steel) because of trash moves, theres a difference between game breaking, and something that isnt even in the running at all right now

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A gamebreaking set is a set that puts a pokemon lightyears ahead of the competition. The only exception would be if a pokemon is a legendary, Kyrogre, Groudon, Mewtwo. But even them, they try to keep them in the ball park. Look at HoOh. Look what they did to Slaking and Metagross. They effectively nerfed their massive CP by giving them inferior moves. Based on Niantic's track record, I have a hard time believing they would allow an "ordinary" pokemon to out-perform a legendary of the same type.

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Again, smack down tyranitar, golem only has any usability because its large total damage output, but it isnt viable agaisnt ice types, one of the things rock's supposed to counter

Slaking was nerfed because of soemthign to do with the main games, its ability truant, and metagross, this seems more than intentional, this seems like they are holding it back for soemthign like a community day, same thing with salamence, remeber, both of them came out aroudn the start of community days

Also remember, Rhydon isnt any ordinary pokemon, it was the first official pokemon ever made, its evolutionary line and it do deserve some sort of special spot (keeoing in mind there are other instances of nonlegendaries being able to compete with legendaries, blast burn Charizard competing with moltres and entei and outwight surpassing ho-oh, jynx and other ice types able to do a lot more DPS than articuno, most water tyoes beating out suicune, though that may be due to kyogre) salamence and dragonite outpacing latios and latias as dragon types, and a few psuchic attackers like alakazam and espeon doing the same to them Mew and lugia (as well as likely celebi) on the psychic side, Dragonite beating lugia and ho-oh as a flying type, venasaur and both eggecxutor forms likely beating celebi as a grass type and many, MANY pokemon beating the regis

the number of nonlegendaries that can outpace legendaries is higher than the number of legendaries that outpace nonlegendaires

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You are the most annoying person on this website to have a debate with. If you can't tell that Niantic has intentionally been trying to keep pokemon on the same level, you are blind.

Why did Niantic give an 9% nerf to some pokemon? Why did Niantic nerf and buff certain moves? Why do pokemon with higher attack stats generally get worse movesets?

Your point about Rhydon makes no sense. I have been with pokemon since the beginning. I played with the very first pokemon cards, I played Pokemon Red and Blue on Gameboy color. I have NEVER heard that about Rhydon. I'm not saying you're wrong, my point is despite that, Rhydon has had zero relevance in the legacy of pokemon, nor has he had any relevance in PoGo. The way you speak of Rhydon makes it sound like he is the face of PoGo. Why haven't we had Rhydon community days? Why did the PoGo CEO choose Tentacruel as his buddy and not Rhydon. There is no basis for your speculation that his chain will get some kind of special treatment.

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Thats because there are a lot of oles in sayig the stron only get bad moves and that legendaries are always the best, theres always exceptions, look at the regies, they're legendaries and they are trash, look at dragonite and tyranitar pokemon that have some of the highest nonlegendary CP in the game that have some of the strongest moves, yes that is a general rule of thumb that regular pokemon dont get good moves if they are strong, but that isnt always the case, theres exceptions that prove the rule, broad statements always incite criticism to the smallest flaw.

About tentacruel theres no way to make tentacruel a better pomekmon without making others still better than it, rhydon IS the best nonlegendary ground type by stats and moves, not one or the other There hasn't been rhydon CD's because, 1, CD's only started in febuary and we've only just gotten through the kanto starters and 3 other non pikachu pokemon (eevee's hasn't happened yet) and 2 rhydon CD would likely be for Rhyperior's former signature move Rock wrecker, a move which Rhydon cannot learn, this is however not likely given Rhydon's evolution to rhyperior has a special evolution requirement in the Protector item, a restriction that would need to be lifted for a CD, and that restriction being lifted does not seem likely

If you haven't heard about it, then let me direct you to it:
http://www.glitterberri.com/pokemon-red-blue/game-freak-staff-interview/creating-the-pokemon/

I never said it was nor did I intend to imply it was the face of the game, but it is a prominent pokemon in its creation, as in how the entire series started.

The 9% nerf seems something more to prevent players with legendaries from completely overtaking those who dont, imagne an unnerfed groudon, or rayquaza or mewtwo, would anything feasible be able to deal with those on gym defense, or competing against them in raids for damage? no, that nerf brings down their stats to a level still above normal pokemon to make them power, but not so ridiculously over tuned it makes the game easy mode for those who have them, and so theres a point where its still worth going for other pokemon than just the legendaries.

If niantic is intentionally trying to keep pokemon on the same level, then why is altiaria not equal to dragonite, or murkrow to tyranitar, or everyone precious machamp to hitmonchan. Saying they want to keep every poemon on the same level is plain and simple not true

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Rhydon being the first mon designed (accurate) doesn't necessarily make it prominent in the game itself. TBF, I hate Rhydon more than you hate Machamp. It's so damn slow regardless of raw power.

Also I wouldn't say Niantic is trying to keep various mon all on the same level. Bar a certain few matchups, Machamp/Hariyama are heads above everything else common and far cheaper to obtain. (I even threw you a bone mentioning E Honda-Lite). What they're doing is trying to keep the playing field relatively level in a way that PRINTS THEM ALL THE MONIES.

Also, every time I think you've adapted and chilled out, you go off on some speculative tangent. Find some Zen.

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I wish they could give Sand Tomb to Garchomp...

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Sand Tomb has too long of a cooldown. Dig arguably does too but has 20 extra points of base damage to compensate. Every ground type charge move blows except the limited Drill Run and the unreleased Precipice Blades.

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Its kind of strange that no ground types can learn drill run in GO, and its not like ground types cant in the main games, Rhydon/horn, the nido's and baltoy/claydol all can learn it (though those last two families can only learn it by move tutor not level up)

theres still earth power and high horse power, and fissure and magnitude but ones an OHKO move, and magnitude's gimmick is random damage (then again night shade deals damage based on level n the main games so they dont need to follow that rule for magnitude)

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Mamoswine by a margin because of its ice potential. It is a matter of competition and Mamoswine won’t have as much as the other two because of its typing.

Groudon is a better long term investment than Rhyperior and has been around awhile now. And of course there is Ttar on the rock side.

Garchomp is another Dragon type and with three additional Dragon legendaries and an elite Ground type in Rhyperior along side it, I can’t see it doing much other than in very specific circumstances.

Togekiss is a big sleeper in gen4 , if it somehow gets double fairy moveset I think it may turn out to be one of the best non-legendaries of gen4.

Movesets, like always, will determine how well each mon performs but Mamoswine looks like a big winner.

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Its gonna depend on their moveset, but lets not thinking about moveset for a while.
I will tell you my perspective as trainer that play quite active for almost 2 years.

I choose Rhyperior, becausei already have good Rhyhorn and Rhydon, some Rhydon is battle ready already.
Beside, i have enough candy for it
I will use it as a ground team, as i already have good rock with 6 tyranitar and 6 golem as backup, and i still dont have a decent ground team
I reluctant to build ground team as i dont see much use for it in the current meta, but with Rhyperior, it is gonna be cheap for me to build one. I can make it as soon as gen 4 coming if i want to.
Mamoswine will be in my Ice team
Garchomp, i have to grind for the candy first.

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The only comment i have is that we don't know if Gen IV evos are going to be straight candy costs. I hope so, because I want my 100% Murkrow/shiny Murkrow maxed ASAP.

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