So I read the article about Giratina and its list of counters...
Is Dragon Breath / Crunch Gyarados not a good counter?
Didn't see it listed and I was thinking that it would be a strong counter. Maybe I am wrong here
Gyarados is weak against Giratina's Ancient Power and this make it not a really good counter although is not weak against Giratina's fast moves.
Some pokémon weak against Ancient Power may be recommended but just because they are bulky (as Lapras) and this is not the case of Gyarados.
In addition crunch has a DPE 1.56 the same of Ancient Power so, considering Giratina has better general stats is not a good enough for considering it as a counter in PvP (where is not enough make damage).
I mean...they listed some pretty sketchy counters and there is literally not a better move against Giratina than Dragon Breath. Gyarados is one of the few mons that can use it and not be weak in return. Dialga was mentioned as a counter but Draco Meteor brought it down. Crunch is a better move. I get that Ancient Power could be a problem but how long does it take to kill a Giratina with just Dragon Breath? Crunch is a clone of Ancient Power in that matchup so I feel like Gyarados wins the fight without strictly losing the shield war.
I did some messing around in GoBattleSim because you got me thinking about this.
Keeping it simple I assumed max IVs for both. Gyarados can only be powered up to L20.5 with 139hp to stay below 2500cp while Giratina can go to 25.5 with 201hp and still be okay. They both do 4 damage to each other with Dragon Breath according to GBS. Before accounting for charge moves Giratina already wins since it can outlast Gyarados by ~60hp.
Factoring in charge moves it gets trickier and comes down to how many shields each person has left. Crunch does 69 damage to Giratina and Ancient Power does 82 damage to Gyarados. By the numbers, Giratina wins 1v1 since it can do more damage and has more bulk.
The Battle Sim must be using STAB for its calculations or something.
Not sure how those results are possible tbh.
As far as I understand it the main part of the damage formula is essentially atk/def. Gyarados wins the Atk/Def battle with Giratina. As 187/186 is less than 234/225. Then you add in the fact that Gyarados gets a 1.6 multiplier and Giratina does not. Giratina should be doing 4 to Gyarados and Gyarados should be doing 6 to Giratina. That is, unless the damage formula is different in PvP.
Edit: Well I mean I realize 234 is not the actual stat used and its the level multipler times it. But Giratina and Gyarados have approx the same max CP so the ratios should be the same.
Which brings me to the question of why you used a Giratina 6 levels higher. That my friend doesnt make sense. The Giratina can be max .5 levels higher as far as I can tell. Fwiw my gyarados is 2494 at level 26 with 13 A/14 S/15 D. While a Giratina at 14/15/15 has 2498 also at level 26.
Edit 2: Ran some simulations and the battle is essentially a stalemate. Dragon Claw performs better than Ancient Power (when using shields) Giratina wins on the 3rd Dragon Claw but uses both of its shields and lives with 24 HP or something. With Ancient Power both shields are used and Giratina lives with 5 HP. Against any Shadow Claw set Gyarados wins. Again Dragon Claw performs better, ALOT better in Shadow Claws case. Gyarados wins with 50
The thing that I fail to understand is how the Giratina is doing 4 dmg per breath and the Gyarados is only doing 5. I cant seem to figure out why that is happening. If it was doing 6 instead of 5 (as I postulated) the Gyarados wins. Even against Dragon Claw.
I guess I am not using the correct formula for the calculation or STAB is indeed applying. Because if Giratina does 4 and Gyarados get 1.6 then it should do 6. But if we go with STAB then the base is say 3.33 x 1.2 = 4 and 3.33 x 1.6 = 5.33
Ultimately though, I guess using up both shields in what is essentially a stalemate against the best PvP pokemon is a success at the end of the day. The Giratina will just feed the charge move of the next pokemon, wont be able to fire off another of its own and the player has no shields so in some ways even though Gyarados loses it wins. Although I guess it would be wiser for the Giratina to hold the last Dragon Claw and finish off with Breaths but its a little risky because it comes out with roughly 5 hp so there is a small chance it dies to the 2nd pokemon before it fires off the Claw.
