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Current way of determining best moveset flawed?

The current way of determining best moveset is built on optimal cycles with quickattacks charging charge moves. This assumes that more damage per time = better.

But how about damage taken? I usually fight using quickattack and dodge. If I use a charge moves, I will take a lot of collateral damage. This is even if I'm not hit by the defender's charge moves, which I would if I were to use perfect cycles.

A quick and rough calculation:
Take for exampel attacking using the mighty hyper beam. It takes 5 seconds and outputs about 120 damage through these 5 seconds. At the same time the defender will inflict damage to you about 3 times (5/1,5; I use only quick moves to simplify the calculation).

To inflict 120 damge using quick moves I could use a quick move giving 12 dps, which would take 10 seconds. Let's make that 12 seconds because you will need to dodge. In 12 seconds the defender can make 8 atacks. If I dodge them all I will receive 8*0,25 = 2 attacks worth of damage, which is less than 3. 3/2 = 1,5 = 50% more damage.

In this example it would take more than double the time to defeat the defender, but if you're not short on time, that is not a problem. What you will gain is more hp for the next fight, you save healing items etc.

So you will take 50% more damage by using hyperbeam as a charge move instead of using quick attack + dodge only. If the charge attack is not as good as hyperbeam, or if you get hit by the defenders charge move, I would guess you receive even more damage, 2-3+ times more damage?

Surely someone must've thought of this, but I googled and didn't find anything. So why doesn't best moveset take damage taken into account? Am I doing the math incorrectly here or do people just not care about how much damage they take?

Asked by Aucag8 years 7 months ago
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Answers

I assume you've already seen this. (Moveset Grades Explanation - https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/moveset-grades-explanation)

Also, check out topics like this for more info on gym battles mechanics, if you don't already know. (Need help to use Pokemon GO Species Data (w/ Movesets) sheet - https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/53yqjq/need_help_to_use_pokemon_go_species_data_w/)

Just like you mentioned, if you dodge every single attack perfectly and avoid doing charge attacks that will end up also reducing your own hp too, you can finish a battle with optimal hp. As mentioned in the topic I've linked, besides dodging, there are also other mechanics in play such as type advantages (moves and pokemon), defender hp bonus, and defender AI behavior.

The various move-sets excel sheets/lists all follow the same principle, which is to come up with a formula that is applicable for every single player, without making it too complicated by accommodating unpredictable conditions such as defender's moves/types/IVs. Since it is impossible to categorize every single scenario and still make the move-set list user-friendly, you will find that most people generally focus just on DPS, and create separate lists for Attacker move-set and Defender move-set.

You should just use the list/excel sheet as a guideline and do what's best for you. If you look at this move-set excel sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hcFo7-UGWx1k1u1BHOvDhq8foPeRr7YbX2jLjjJK0Qw/htmlview?sle=true#gid=1036598933), you should see two columns for Tankiness (approximation for your ability to stay alive/base hp * base def) and Duel Ability (approximation for your attack strength if you don't dodge/tankiness * gym offense), a.k.a the worst case scenario. You should take that into account when formulating your attack style. Logically, if given a choice, nobody would ever not dodge when they see an opponent charging their move. Especially now, with the introduction of attack buffer, nobody smart would continue button-mashing during an attack and risk missing an important dodge.

A little bit about my particular situation, which has nothing to do with the topic on hand:

I can use my 1200 84% attacker Wigglytuff (pound/hyper beam) to beat my 2700 97.3% defender Dragonite (dragon breath/hyper beam) within 35 seconds consistently by using exactly 1 Hyper beam as soon as I can. I only dodge once when my Dragonite starts charging up his hyper beam, at which point I dodge to the side and use my own hyper beam. I end the battle with about 20% health. All I need to heal him back up is 1 hyper potion or 3 super potions.

If I only use pound+dodging against my Dragonite, I will end the battle with slightly less than 40% health, but take about 60 seconds. I will require 2 super potions to recover to full hp. If my potions are low, and I really need to train up my gym, perhaps I can do just that.

However, that is only applicable for gym training. If I'm fighting a rival gym filled up with Dragonites, for example, chances are the 2nd pokemon would be stronger than the 1st. If I required 50% hp to take down the 1st pokemon with type advantages, I definitely wouldn't be able take down the 2nd stronger pokemon. The best I can do is use my charge move immediately, and then switch out my pokemon to conserve revives.

In real life scenario, it's more probable that I will face gyms with pokemon of different types. Since I always plan ahead and prepare my team depending on type advantages, I usually end the battle taking minimal damage and inflicting maximum damage, even if I don't dodge much. This means that I can end the battle fast without using up precious revives, even if I need to use more potions instead.

This is especially important to me in my city, because of its dense population. The gyms are all located beside apartment buildings. As everyone knows, when one is fighting a gym, sparks and smoke around the gym will visually show on the map. If I spend too much time, somebody will definitely claim the gym as soon as I beat the gym, even if it was 3am. So instead of resources, speed is more of an issue for me.

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Thanks for the elaborate reply and sorry for replying late.

Without understanding exactly what's in those sheets, I still think finnishing with more hp is better because (not taking type etc into account):
Finnishing with more hp = possible to give more damage per healthbar/per Pokemon. For example:
Wigglytuff defeating dragonite with 20% health left means you can defeat 1,25 dragonite with that Wigglytuff .
Wigglytuff deafeating Dragonite with 40% health left means you can defeat 1,67 Dragonites. The same Wigglytuff but different fighting strategy.
Since both strategies will defeat the defender within 99 seconds, time doesn't matter. Therefore I would say that the second strategy is more successful.

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Well, the first problem with this conversation for me is that I misunderstood the phrase "if you're not short on time" in your initial post as how much free time I can spend fighting gyms. Apparently, you were referring to the 99 seconds time limit for each round of gym battle.

Unfortunately, like I illustrated in my own case scenario, I will be at a distinct disadvantage if I can't take down my neighborhood gym fast enough, so even though I certainly can't speak for everyone, wasting time by conserving hp and items is a problem for me personally.

Secondly, if you'll spare me some time, I would like to illustrate a worst case scenario by assuming that you, as a player, are in a situation where potions and revives are scarce and you're trying to take down a level 10 gym filled with 10 rival Snorlax of an average of 2000CP and 50% IV each (note: this is because in the current metagame, Snorlax has no effective counter, not even a pokemon with type advantage against it, so no matter which pokemon you choose to fight it, there won't be much of an advantage), with 6 of your strongest pokemons also at 2000CP and 50% IV each.

You'll be using your tactic of quick moves + dodging. The opponent AI will of course be using a combination of quick moves (Zen Headbutt) and charged moves (Hyper Beam) as much as it can by alternating both type of moves for all 10 Snorlax.

For reference, in my experiences, I can take down a single 2000CP Snorlax with a 2700 Dragonite in 35 seconds with minimum dodging and end with 30% hp left.

For this scenario, I'm going to assume that by employing your tactic, you can finish each round in 90 seconds with 40% hp left. From what I know, no matter how well you can dodge, you will still take at least 25% of the total damage that each hyper beam was supposed to inflict. And due to the amount of time spend fighting a single Snorlax, it is reasonable to believe that each Snorlax will be able to use Hyper Beam at least twice in each round.

To simplify the equation, we'll asuume it's a 25% hp loss from dodging a hyper beam, considering the fact that you are using pokemons of equal CP as your opponents. Therefore, (25%+25% from Hyper Beam) + (10% from Zen Headbutt)= 60% of hp lost each round for your pokemon.

By fighting to the death, you should be able to clear all 10 Snorlax in the gym with only 1 pokemon left, as long as you can dodge and attack perfectly. It will take you 900 seconds. You will bring down the gym prestige by 6500 (500x10 for each defeated Pokémon + 1500 for full clear bonus) and gain 1050 XP (100x10 for each defeated Pokémon + 50 for full clear bonus).

However, according to you in your first post, if you were to alternate between quick moves and charged moves + dodging only for opponent's charged moves, you will take less than half the time than you normally need for your quick moves + dodging tactic. Let's assume that you are now employing the former tactic and run through the same scenario with most of the same conditions again, though we will have to assume that all 6 of your pokemons also have Hyper Beam as their charged moves.

Simply put, this time, you will take far more damage and far less time per round, but be forced to finish the fight without clearing all 10 Snorlax. Fortunately, I am experienced with this tactic, and I can guarantee you that in this situation, because of the speed at which each round will end, each Snorlax will only be able to use 1 Hyper Beam, which you will dodge (because that's is the most logical thing to do).

By fighting to the death, you will take 45 seconds for each round, which is half the time it takes for your quick moves + dodge tactic. I can tell you that you'll be able to beat each Snorlax with just 2 Hyper Beam in addition to the quick moves, as long as you use it as soon as the charged gauge is full. You should be able to end each round with only 25% health left (25% total damage from Snorlax's Hyper Beam with dodging + 50% total damage from Snorlax's Zen Headbutt with no dodging), but you'll enter the next round with a fully charged gauge, which you'll be able to unleash as soon as the next round starts.

To simplify things, you are trading 75% hp to beat each Snorlax, and you'll be able to only beat 8 Snorlax at most before you are unable to battle. It will take you 360 seconds (45 seconds x 8 Snorlax). You will bring down the gym prestige by 4000 (500x8 for each defeated Pokémon) and gain 800 XP (100x8 for each defeated Pokémon).

However, this is only in theory. Frankly, there are also many other variables when it comes to optimizing resources, whether it be time or potions.

For example, with quick moves + constant dodging, you will spend 900 seconds to bring down 6500 prestige, while with the charged moves + quick moves + 1 dodge per round tactic, you will spend 360 seconds to bring down 4000 prestige. You can easily hit the gym twice with the 2nd tactic to bring the gym down by 8000 prestige and spend only 720 seconds in battle, in total.

However, you will need to revive and heal all 6 pokemons in between the two battle attempts. That's a minimum of 12 super potions (note: even a 100% IV Snorlax with 2001 CP will only have 212 max hp, therefore if you use revive on all 6 pokemon, chances are you only need to use 2 hyper potion at most to get each to full/near full hp) and 5 revives (note: there is no reason not to flee from battle after beating the 8th Snorlax, so you will be able to save 1 revive but spend 2 more hyper potion), not to mention about 30 seconds spent in the item section healing your pokemon and another 10 seconds to start the 2nd round of gym battles.

So to compare the two tactics,

Tactic 1: quick move + constant dodge
Time: 900 seconds
Items Spent: none
Prestige: -6500
XP: 1050

Tactic 2: quick move + charged move + 1 dodge
Battle Attempt 1
Time: 760 seconds
Items spent: 12 hyper potion + 6 revive or 14 hyper potion + 5 revive
Prestige: -8000
XP: 1600

Of course, at the end of the day, you will definitely have to use whatever potions and revives you possess to heal the 6 injured pokemon you've used. But since that's common for both tactic, I've left that out. As you can see, depending on what the player values most, each tactic can be just as suitable and applicable as the other. It depends on how you define a "successful strategy".

Also this is assuming that it's a level 10 gym. If it was just a level 8 gym:

Tactic 1: quick move + constant dodge
Time: 720 seconds (90 seconds x 8 Snorlax)
Items Spent: none
Prestige: -5500 prestige (500x8 for each defeated Pokémon + 1500 for full clear bonus)
XP: 850 XP (100x8 for each defeated Pokémon + 50 for full clear bonus)

Tactic 2: quick move + charged move + 1 dodge

Battle Attempt 1
Time: 360 seconds (45 seconds x 8 Snorlax)
Items spent: none
Prestige: -5500 (500x8 for each defeated Pokémon + 1500 for full clear bonus)
XP: 850 XP (100x8 for each defeated Pokémon + 50 for full clear bonus)

Note: after the first battle attempt, the gym level will drop by 1 level if the amount of gym prestige drops below the threshold, and become a level 7 gym, and so the number of Snorlax in the gym will also drop by 1 accordingly. If this did not happen, attempt two will yield the same result as attempt 1 in terms of prestige and xp. We'll assume it's now a level 7 gym for this scenario.

Tactic 2: quick move + charged move + 1 dodge
Battle Attempt 2
Time: 355 seconds (45 seconds x 7 Snorlax + 40 seconds on healing)
Items spent: 12 hyper potion + 6 revive or 14 hyper potion + 5 revive (maximum number in worst case scenario)
Prestige: -5000 (500x7 for each defeated Pokémon + 1500 for full clear bonus)
XP: 750 XP (100x7 for each defeated Pokémon + 50 for full clear bonus)

Tactic 2 total:
Time: 715 seconds
Items spent: 12 hyper potion + 6 revive or 14 hyper potion + 5 revive (maximum number in worst case scenario)
Prestige: -10500
XP: 1600

As you can see, in pretty much the same time it takes you to use tactic 1 once, you can use tactic 2 twice and inflict more prestige and earn more xp at the expense of using more items.

I know I've taken a lot of liberties at the calculation and assumptions, but the reasoning is still the same; in this case, you'll either spend more time and less items or you'll spend less time and more items. Even if someone's tactic is to only beat the first pokemon of each gym before fleeing, and thereby dropping the prestige by only 500 every 2 minutes, saving all his revives while using up a lot of potions, that player will still be trading something he might not value (time and potions) for something else he probably values more (revives).

No matter how you look at it, the same lesson as the level 10 gym battle scenario is applicable here; It depends on how you define a "successful strategy". If time is an affordable commodity to you, nobody can say that you're wrong.

To tie this back into the original question of whether the moveset ranking system is flawed because it doesn't take damage taken into account, let me summarise and clarify my original reply.

The tl;dr version is: Everyone knows it's flawed. The moveset ranking is only applicable if you remove a bunch of variables like type advantages and dodges from the equation.

The moveset list/ranking was created to allow the players to determine the best pokemon to keep as either an attacker or a defender by judging on their movesets. That's literally it's only purpose.

And as you can see, the moveset ranking for both Attacker and Defender are completely different, due to the behavior of the gym AI. In fact, in one of the excel sheet I've linked previously, the author actually does acknowledge under the column of "no weave damage" that for some movesets, continuously spamming the quick moves only, while ignoring charged moves will yield a better dps.

Dodging isn't included as a criteria for ranking pokemons strengths, as seen under the column "Duel Ability", which is defined as "a reasonable measure if you don't often/ever dodge, as then you can only attack for as long as you can stay positive on HP."

But it's not like you can switch your moveset after you've caught or evolved your pokemon, and players have to choose which of their numerous pokemons of the same species they would power up, based on their IVs and movesets. Sometimes, I would power up a low CP, high IVs pokemon with a good moveset and spend a great amount of stardusts and candies. In principle, this is exactly the same as the gym battle tactics scenarios that we've discussed. I valued the IVs and moveset more than the stardusts and candies because of their unpredictability, just as you did for potions and revives spent vs time spent in gym battles. For me, I have so much potions I needed to toss them to make space. If the situation calls for me to use more potions and save more time, I would say, why not? But my situation is unique only to me, and isn't applicable to you, right?

So, unfortunately, as logical as your idea is, when I'm fighting a level 7 gym every day for 15 minutes straight alone, dodging every single attack is just too much for my concentration. That's why I always prepare my team 10 minutes before I hit the gym, and choose all my pokemons with type advantages and the proper movesets based on the opponent pokemons. Your logic is sound in theory, but not really practical for me, where all the gyms here are right in the middle of the 3 different apartment blocks.

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Thanks again for an insightful reply

I don't have much experience fighting in gyms so propabably you are right about time being more important than hp. Especially if you wanna take down many gyms quickly to be able to take out as much money as you can from the shop with a minimum risk of being kicked out from the gyms you just defeated.

And actually, I used the strategy I described not because I have to few potions or revives. I live in a city where you can replenish over 100 or so items by riding the bus through the city center for 10-15 minutes. I know in smaller towns there might be only 4-7 stops in the whole town so in that case itemes are probably more valuable.

I used the strategy described because in my case, I simply don't have Pokemon strong enough to survive the match if I don't keep dodging. And that is because I don't catch many high IV pokemon, so all my fighters are non-powered up evolutions of common pokemon (Clefairy, Drowsee) at levels slightly below mid 20. I notice that as my pokemon are getting higher CP, I can also change strategy not having to conserve hp as much. So as I reach my first strong eevee or Growlithe evolution, maybe the cycle strategy will be more feasible.

Again, thanks for taking my question seriously. I feel I got a good answer and I am humbled by tha amount of time you used on your reply.

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I guess I was too quick to assume that you were creating that strategy purely for resources conservation. It's cool that you would actually tried to come up with a feasible idea to help people in other parts of the world with low resources. I feel that if someone's in that kind of situation, they would probably have already thought of doing exactly what you've described after acknowledging their lack of real options. That's probably why I thought that you came up with that plan for yourself.

I can understand the feeling of not being able to take down gyms with low level pokemons completely. I tried fighting a gym when I was below level 10 with only bug type pokemons during the first week the game launched in my country. When I realised that I had a lot of trouble taking down a level 2 gym consisting of two 1000+CP Pidgeotto with 6 Pinsir of an average of 700CP, and after finally claiming the gym, to have it immediately taken down before I could even enter the shop menu to get my coin, I decided that gym battling was just too early for me.

I didn't participate in gym battles until I was level 20, which was about 3 weeks after I first started playing, with a 97% Dragonite that was powered up as much as possible, and I quickly saw how easy it was to dominate the scene when your opponents can't do super effective damage on you.

However, that's also the only Pokemon I've ever powered up since then (1 month and 1 week since then, currently at level 26) and I still have no problem clearing enemies gyms every night alone. The gym usually consist of six 2000+CP A-Tier pokemons, and I could clear it in 7 to 10 mins with just my single 2700+CP Dragonite and whatever 5 pokemons with type advantages that I've selected before-hand, with an average CP of just 1400. Yes, it still get reclaimed by the opponents within hours after I've left, but holding a gym for more than half a day in my small country is highly unlikely with the amount of players playing the game right now.

If you're having problem taking down high CP pokemon like I was, my best advice is to use type advantages, and also to not bother with clearing the entire gym in one go.

For example, if your opponent in the 3rd round is a Dragonite, and you have no way to inflict super effective damage on him with either ice, dragon or rock attacks, then you might as well flee from the battle. You'll still be able to inflict the 1000 prestige for beating the first 2 rounds, and this will help you save time and potions/revives by allowing you to immediately start beating the first two pokemons again, assuming they haven't being kicked out of the gym yet after the gym prestige dropped.

Sooner or later, that Dragonite will be the only pokemon left in the gym, but since you've being fighting just the opponent's weaker pokemon to get the gym down to level 2, you'll only have to fight that Dragonite two times or less to claim the gym, instead of having to fight multiple opponents before reaching the Dragonite, and end up having just half of your Pokemon left for the final round in a fight that you might not win with your current roster of pokemon.

Hope I wasn't overly presumptuous with my suggestions and comments thus far. I'm sure the other users' replies has also been useful to you too, so hopefully I was helpful too, even though half of what I've said were long-winded case scenarios and my own experiences instead of simple answers. Thanks.

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Up until level 24 (I'm 25 now) I thought that you had to hold the gym for 21 hours before getting any coins. I think the online guides are very unclear on this point. Googling real quick, I still can't find a site that tells you you can take out coins immediatly. From this presumption I drew the conclusion that I won't get any coins anyway, so I might as well use my potions to weaken enemy gyms. That was when I started to take on the level 10 prestige 50 000 gyms with 2000+ to 3000+ dragonites and Snorlaxes using my 1300-1400 CP Clefables and Hypnos. I could only take down 2-3 of them at the time = -1500 prestige. I felt I needed to dodge to survive the match.

Then my brother told me I could get the coins directly after placing a pokémon at the gym. So now I usually find gyms with my own color, reincorce them with my own pokémon and then find a cluster of weak enemy gyms (level 3, 6000 prestige) and take them over for 20-30 coins a day. If I am lazy, I can just snipe a gym that was just taken down and put my own pokémon there for an easy 10 coins.

My strongest pokémons are now around 1600 and I have some around 1000 with type advantages that I can use. I found out that battling against weak level 3-5 gyms using cycles is certainly faster. I don't know if this works for higher level gyms at my current level though. Maybe I'll try when I get my own 97% Dragonite.

It is hard to hold a gym for longer than ½-1 hour. If you know another way of getting even more coins at one time I'd be happy to hear about it.

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Regarding better ways of getting coins, I think it would be better if you create a new question topic so that other users would be able contribute their suggestions and ideas. Besides, I'm sure other new players will benefit from the answers to that question.

Personally, on most nights, I just walk to the basketball court gym that's about 5 mins away, spend as long as I need to beat and claim the gym, then collect my coin immediately and call it a night. If I have an hour of free time to spend, I'll walk to the local temple gym that's 20 mins away, beat and claim that gym. After that, I'll either hit the next temple gym that's 5 mins away or I'll head to the basketball court gym, claim that and collect 20 coins for the day. The bigger temples in my area are all gyms, and also located a small distance away from the residential area, so I have a better chance of collecting more than 10 coins a night, before they get claimed by other players claiming gyms by traveling around the neighbourhood by cars.

My advice for you is to find gyms that are close to each other, so that you can hit more gyms in a small amount of time, or just shorten the traveling time between each gyms. The players in my area uses mountain bikes or segway/electric scooters.

Unfortunately, I'm not really big on spending money just to play a game, and I don't have any of those portable transportation lying around. Also, I've collected around only 250 coins in total within this past 1.5 month, and the only thing I've spend them on is incubators because I currently have eight 10km eggs and I wanted to hatch them all together at the same time. Fortunately, I've kept the free incubators awarded for leveling up, so if I have to wait another month before I'll be able to buy the final two incubators, then so be it. In the meantime, the infinite incubator will suffice to hatch those numerous 2km/5km egg that I keep getting instead of my final 10km egg.

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In gym battle, timing is important.

Sometimes even your charge move is ready, but it doesn't mean it's the right time to attack when you know the opponent's charge move is almost ready.

And there is time where you want to use the charge attack asap without considering the damage taken when you are safe from opponent's charge attack.

Move set don't consider damage taken because you never know the timing of the opponent, you never know what moves they got before entering the battle.

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Even if you don't know the moveset of the defender. Quickmove + dodge should mean less damage taken, which as described above, should result in more damge given per healthbar/per Pokemon, which means you can take down more pokémons from the enemy gym, no?

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Yes, the time is more important than the HealPotion...
Many times i dont dodge, for win more energie , (-hp=+energie) ( +energie= +DPS) and down the gyms more fastly.
i need win more XP / hour ^^ , if i want heal pot i go spam pokestop...

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Sure if you want more xp, maybe taking down the defender fast is the better way. But that is assuming your pokémon is strong enough to take down the defender before he takes you down. If you are weaker than the defender (which is often the case because you don't power up to save for perfect IV pokémon), you will get taken down before him because you didn't conserve your hp.

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