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Controversial Raikou Counters?

Curious of folks reaction to this....I'm trying to process myself at the moment. Looks like we will be getting raikou here shortly in our region...

Asked by DoctorThalamus8 years 2 months ago

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That should just be Damage Per SECOND from your attacker into the boss. Over the course of an entire battle other counters should deal more total damage per life because they are also resisting more damage dealt by the boss.

What time is this saber tooth beast dropping

lol, idk but previous releases have been ~5:00pm PST... So, could be in about 5 hours. Tomorrow for sure!

Probably this afternoon or tomorrow morning, depending on your time zone. In America only.

Classic Glass cannon vs Good Counter choice here. But as always the question really is "What's your group's size/level/counters etc.?"

The biggest issue is Raikou has two 2-bar charge moves, so the likelihood the glass cannons are gonna fall is much higher. But I'll probably make my teams like I always do, 1-2 glass cannons (Zam, Geng), 2-3 Supreme/Good counters (Dnite, flareon), and 1-2 "Tanks" (Rhydon, Golem).

I'm more curious who auto-select is going to choose for my second group.

Exeggutors and the nido royalty. Quagsire if we are lucky :-)

Blissey

It's also pretty safe to say that the average player is going to run out as many Rhydons as they have then Golems, and maybe a Blissey or two. So plan accordingly.

Gamepress currently lists all ground Rhydon and Golem as the only two supreme counters. So the average player that uses them is at least doing some research.

They will be autoselected and in this case they are also the right choice.

Yes. Ground Rhydon and Golem will outperform pretty much all other combos by time and damage. There is little need to play around with off brand counters for him unless you lack those or the TMs to make them.

My guess is you are going to see a LOT of Rock Rhydons/Golems out there since the average player probably didn't spend their TM's trying to get EQ on their post bird Rhydons/Golems.

My guess is even a bunch of people in this thread didn't spend TM's changing SE to EQ, because in other than this type of matchup it's a direct downgrade.

I used TM's, but had already done so previously. My maxed Rhydons both know Earthquake and have for some time. I would never think of doing the same to my maxed Golems!
Per Fast-Move availability:
Ground = Rhydon's job.
Rock = Golem's job.

So is that the best strategy? Something like Gengar, Alakazam, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Golem, Rhydon in that order? Would that be better than 4-6 Rhydons/Golems?

I wouldn't say it's the best, but for me it's a way to hedge my bets. In large groups it gets me DPS for +3 balls, in smaller groups I die quicker and get my second group in faster while having a better chance at +3 balls.

The downfall is the mid-sized groups when you get caught in between, that's why I gave ranges, sometimes I put in tankier options so I stay in with the first group.

No, you are running a serious risk of your gengar or alakazam get fried before firing their charge, especially when 2 out of 3 of raikou charge moves are 2 bar moves. This will significantly reduce your damage.

Do you take into account the amount of time it takes to have your gengar and alakazam switch out?

Yes, I can get 1 shadow ball of, die and have the second guy in and running before EQ/SE is even charged, if I'm lucky enough to get 2 shadow balls in I'm that much more ahead of the game.

Plus I don't have more than 2 of any moveset at an appreciable level except eeveelutions and eggys.

FWIW, I did two Raikou this morning with about 15 people.

The first I got through two max Rhydons and part of a third.

The second try I got through lvl 40 gengar (SC/SB) and alakazm (C/FS) and part of a lvl 40 Rhydon.

In both cases I only got one ball. I got one charge move off with both the first two glass cannons.

This is only an anecdotal case, but the difference is probably marginal.

You are assuming both your gengar can fire ShB before dying. That is not always the case since in raids the boss energy is charged very fast from the damage taken from all other players, so he can fire a charge move at any time, especially if it is a 2 bar move like thunderbolt or wild charge. If 1 of your gengar die before firing you fall significantly behind.
Just yesterday I had a ttar fire FB on his third attack when raiding in a group of 10, and that was a full bar charge.

Rhydon and Golem are too Slow against Raikou.
Dragonite is the go-to choice against it.
1 Rhydon as last Anchor will be fine.

MudSlapSucks

You make a valid point because (without dodging) at L39 a MS/E Rhydon will do about DOUBLE the damage to Raikou compared to a L39 DT/O Dragonite, but will take NEARLY DOUBLE the time to deal that damage. So, it goes back to OP's question, and the answer depends on GROUP SIZE.

I'm guessing in groups of 15+ lean towards Dragonite, groups of 10-15 go for more tanks, and groups of less than 10 a mixture (so as to balance doing enough damage to win and not fainting out and losing your bonus).

Double damage during doubled time mean same dps but doubled survivability ?

Yes, but we're trying to maximize damage overall for the WHOLE lineup. Therefore, in a certain group size too many Rhydons means you will survive too long and the battle will be over with somewhere mid-lineup for you-- In this case, adding some higher DPS to your lineup is to your advantage.

But the dps difference in this case is only 5% and probably cancel out with the time the dragon faint and switched, plus you loose energy every time you faint.

I'm saying this only if your whole lineup is over-surviving. It's 5% each and will add up in the end. In this case, adding more DPS will be better.

I didn't get your point. Can't you switch your rhydon manually? And even why not to put glassy mons first?

What about switching? I didn't mention that at all. I also don't see what your 2nd question is referencing, as I said nothing about that above either.

All I said was basically, that if lineups full of ideal counters are over-surviving the battle then when in LARGE/POWERFUL groups adding DPS is a better option than using the counters listed as "Supreme".

The simulations would beg to differ. They have Rhydon outdpsing and outsurviving Dragonite, I'll go with those. Thanks tho.

Going back to the OP,
If you're raiding in powerful enough groups where a lineup full of ideal counters is surviving too long, then add those highest DPS counters (from the pic you attached) to the start of your lineup.

It's the classic, powerful group = use more dps and weaker/smaller groups = use more bulk.