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Understanding best movesets

Going to use Zapdos for this example.

We have 3 moves; Thunderbolt, Zap cannon, and Thunder. Thunderbolt is multi-bar, so I can understand why it is considered good. However, then we have Thunder and Zap Cannon. Zap cannon has more raw power, yet Thunder has better true DPS due to its faster animation.... but then why is Zap Cannon considered better when Thunder has better DPS?

Asked by Raven87 years 7 months ago

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I find DPS on charge moves to be a really useless/misleading statistic, DPE or weave DPS are much more representative of the best charge moves. For example, DPS makes Hurricane seem like a much better move than Outrage, when they are actually fairly close (outrage has an edge).

I asked this same question yesterday. Specifically regarding Zapdos' charge move. It's probably not far down in the Q&A, but some good answers.

For charge moves the number you want to use is damage per energy. DPS is the number for quick moves. You answered your own question...zc does more raw damage, or more DPE.

http://www.pogomoves.com/check.php?lang=en&pkmn=Zapdos&basic=Charge+Beam&charge=Thunder

Charge Beam/Thunderbolt and Charge Beam/Zap Cannon are tied for most offensive damage. Charge Beam/Thunder does 89% of that damage.

omg. . .

you need to check the cooldown also.

ZC is 140 base dmg and 3.7 s cooldown (you could also consider the timing of the damage, but let's not do that here).

Thunder is 100 dmg and 2.4 s cooldown.

Charge Beam (Fast attack) does 15 energy per use. [Let us not account for energy gained for damage taken.] In order to charge to full bar (100 energy) you need to do 6.67 charge beams (at least 7). Charge beams cooldown is 1.1 s.

So one cycle of charge beams to reach 100 energy would be 7 attacks times 1.1 s/attack = 7.7 s.
One cycle of charge beam damage = 7 attacks x 8 damage/attack = 56 damage.

cycle for CB/ZC = 7.7s + 3.7s = 11.4s
(56 [CB dmg] + 140 [ZC dmg]) / 11.4s = 17.19 dps

cycle for CB/Thunder = 7.7s + 2.4s = 10.1s
(56 [CB dmg] + 100 [ZC dmg]) / 10.1s = 15.4455 dps

therefore CB/ZC > CB/Thunder

omg. . .

You totally just did an unfair comparison, making your ascertain that "CB/ZC > CB/Thunder" unsubstantiated.

You gain additional dmg and energy using the fast move when using Thunder because it ends sooner. You need to factor this into your analysis.

Okay, that does make more sense. Thank you all for explaining.

How I compare charge moves is Damage Per Energy + Opportunity Cost of Time.

For example: Zap 140/100 in 3.7
Thunder 100/100 in 2.4

So First Figure out how many charge beams you can fit in Thunders 1.3 seconds. and you get 1.18. Now multiply that on Charge Beams stats and you get 9.45 Damage abnd 17.72 Energy. Adjust Thunders Damage Up and Energy Down by those amount.

Thunder is 109.45/82.27 = 1.33 Damage per energy
Zap is still 1.4

They are really pretty close, anything under 10% you can argue that the lower dps one is better for dodging.

So for me Zap vs Thunder is basically a wash.

As a quicker way of comparing just ask your self, would you rather have 8 Damage + 15 Energy (1 charge beam) or 40 Damage in same basic time frame.